[Rictor]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1360236,00.html

[Bobboau]

ok, I've got a big headache, so to boil things down your saying America is responcable for the mess in ukraine?

[Rictor]

no, I am saying they are backing Pora, a student group which is a major, if not the  major, opposition group. And I'm also saying that they did the exact same thing in Serbia and Georgia, with great success I might add.

I didn't mention whether it was good or bad, just pointing out another instance (several actually) of interventtion in foreign countries.

as for your headache, are you sure its just a headache and not say, an alien creature that has been implanted into your frontal lobe via a direct and rather gruesome enounter with a headcrab?

[NGTM-1R]

And your point in doing so is...?

[Eviscerator]

Nevermind that almost EVERY nation that is considered a power, and some that are not,  will attempt to influence the politics of another nation to their own favor in at least some  degree.

Or are you forgetting that several foreign nations, and their citizens, got involved, in varying degrees, in the past US election?

That is all I have to say. I will not get involved in this subject any further.

[Rictor]

Alright, here's a scenario.

Bush is widely believed to have engaged in fraud and illegal measures to win the 2000 election (we'll still see about 2004, but I doubt it). So, in order to put and end to this gross violation of demecratic ideals, China trains and funds opposition groups within the US to force the regime from power with civil disobedience and direct action. China has succesfully pulled this off in Britain and Germany just a year or so ago.

And this is OK by you?

[Bobboau]

some say similar things are happening.

(ie not a hypothetical)

[redmenace]

Anyone remember OPNOR in Yugoslavia taking down Milosevich. BTW, what is with former Soviet states and run off elections?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Eviscerator
Nevermind that almost EVERY nation that is considered a power, and some that are not,  will attempt to influence the politics of another nation to their own favor in at least some  degree.

Or are you forgetting that several foreign nations, and their citizens, got involved, in varying degrees, in the past US election?

That is all I have to say. I will not get involved in this subject any further.

to the extent of dictatting the tactics of & funding the opposition party?

That said, I can't really condemn independent funding of a democratic opposition in a country such as the Ukraine, where the incumbent has a vast advantage through media control.

What does worry me is whether or not these sort of occasions become a case of proxy governments, or a sort of conflict-by-proxy between America / EU and Russia over their preffered leader.... I guess what you need is complete transparency to ensure that, if the eventual leader is beholden to another country etc etc, then the people will become aware and be able to put pressure on which prevents said other country having an undue influence.