[Flipside]

Yes, I think Antonines was an earlier, failed attempt to achieve what Hadrians wall did, which was as much to stop British revolutionaries fleeing North to swell the Scottish ranks as prevent any unseen troops movements by them.

[an0n]

Originally posted by Unknown Target


You forgot the US/French.

Ph34r t3h 4m3ric4n r3\/0lu+i0n!!!!!111oneoneone

Firstly, the French never beat us.

Secondly, it was ENGLISH COLONIALS - not Americans - who forced a "**** it, they're not worth it" policy. So that counts as internal bickering anyways.

[kasperl]

I know there was someone from Bretagne who did the whole Hastings thing, but I forgot who won. I really do think I recall the Breton winning and not the Brit.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by ionia23
Interesting.

I did a little search on "Iraq Napalm".  Funny thing that all of the articles listed are posted by rather 'independent' news outlets, mostly by staff-opinion writers.  Show it as a headline on cbsnews.com and I'll buy it.

More to the point - Firebomb != Napalm.

Even more to the point: Napalm itself is a gel, not a gas.

If anyone has a view that runs counter to this, be my guest.

Napalm = firebomb

Though.  i mean,  a firebomb is a firebomb, regardless of whether it's technically napalm.  We're talking of a warhead which is effectively the 'next-gen' napalm; different chemical composition, same effect & purpose.

Al-Jazeera does have a story on it (it being probably the largest media outlet which has some form of genuine access to the city), but I know that some people would consider it a biased source.

One thing worth noting is that the supposedly unbiased news stations - bbc, itv etc - have a very restricted access to Fallujah; that could be an explanation of why it's not been publicised there, namely that it can't be objectively confirmed by embedded reporters.   It's highly unlikely the US army would allow damaging pictures of the devastation in Fallujah to be taken by said reporters... it's likely that the most reliable reports will take a while to trickle out.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by kasperl
I know there was someone from Bretagne who did the whole Hastings thing, but I forgot who won. I really do think I recall the Breton winning and not the Brit.

The French were allied with Scotland (and Norway) up to the act of Union, so you could count that as internal squabbling.

[kasperl]

Anything that is meant as an area effect weapon, meaning cluster bombs, fire bombs, ultra-heavy bombs, excesive usage of M203 blindfire, air-plane strafes and god-knows-what-else just seams a bit odd in a urban environment with civilians in the area.

[Liberator]

Originally posted by Flipside
It's not the fact they can do what they like that scares me, so much, so could the Greeks, the Romans etc, it's what they are choosing to do with that ability that scares me.

So you're against bringing freedom and democracy to a region that has not ever had it in it's 10,000+ year history?

[kode]

Originally posted by Liberator


So you're against bringing freedom and democracy to a region that has not ever had it in it's 10,000+ year history?

if you by "bringing freedom and democracy" means "loot and pillage", then yes. also bear in mind that you are full of crap. please supply a credible source saying that the people there hasn't been free at least once since civilization itself was born in that area.

[an0n]

Originally posted by Liberator
So you're against bringing freedom and democracy to a region that has not ever had it in it's 10,000+ year history?

No, he's against bringing mass death to the region.

[Rictor]

Its funny how "bringing democracy" means:

-Killing in excess of 100,000 civilians
-Using several types of illegal weapons
-Setting up an unelected puppet government
-Imprisoning thousands under inhumane conditions without due process of law.
-Laying siege to heavily populated cities, and proceeding to shell/bomb the hell out of them.
-Building several permanent military bases set to house tens of thousands of soldiers.
-Effectively banning indepedent media

If that's democracy, whatever you do please keep it the hell away from me.

[an0n]

Methinks Liberator is having difficultly grasping the concepts of freedom and democracy.

If it were democratic, then the US wouldn't be killing and/or de-homing hundreds of thousands of people just to get a few hundred terrorists.

And freedom can exist without democracy. But being American and stupid - he assumes the two things are synonymous.

[Liberator]

When the US start killing people wholesale and dumping them, by the hundreds of thousands, into the nearest pit, call me.  

Europe is just pissed off because they weren't consulted and their little money scheme got busted up and the Arabs are pissed off because we're doing away with their clan based monarchys and making them get along like modern, civilized people should behave and stop killing each other over arguments that should've died with the generation that started them.

[an0n]

Originally posted by Liberator
When the US start killing people wholesale and dumping them, by the hundreds of thousands, into the nearest pit, call me.  

Europe is just pissed off because they weren't consulted and their little money scheme got busted up and the Arabs are pissed off because we're doing away with their clan based monarchys and making them get along like modern, civilized people should behave and stop killing each other over arguments that should've died with the generation that started them.

Quoted for posterity.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Liberator
When the US start killing people wholesale and dumping them, by the hundreds of thousands, into the nearest pit, call me.  

Europe is just pissed off because they weren't consulted and their little money scheme got busted up and the Arabs are pissed off because we're doing away with their clan based monarchys and making them get along like modern, civilized people should behave and stop killing each other over arguments that should've died with the generation that started them.

Oh dear.

Quick reply;

Europe - agreed napalm is an illegal weapon after the horrors of its use in 'nam.

US - Lancet has credited 100,000 extra deaths in Iraq due to the war and its consequences

Money scheme - plenty of Americans made money off of Iraq.  In fact, I remember Rumsfeld pleaded to get some sanctions lifted so he could do business with Saddam (before coming to power).  Also based on as yet unproven allegations.

Arab monarchy - this is coming from the government which props up the likes of the Saudi and Kuwaiti monarchies... truth be told, the US will oppose democracy in most Arab countries because any elected government would be their enemy.  Oh, and of course there's the historical stuff such as the Shah in Iran.

[Rictor]

and don't forget the monarchy in Jordan and the military junta in Pakistan, two close US allies. Not to mention the UAE, Qatar and all the other tiny Gulf monarchies who's names elude me at the moment.

[Flipside]

I think it's more a question of the fact that America is defining what Freedom and Democracy is, and then bringing that to other countries, when, in truth, Freedom and Democracy should be defining America, not the opposite.

[kode]

Originally posted by Flipside
I think it's more a question of the fact that America is defining what Freedom and Democracy is, and then bringing that to other countries, when, in truth, Freedom and Democracy should be defining America, not the opposite.

well put

[aldo_14]

zigackly

[Zarax]

Come on, you should understand people like Lib...
They ran out of commies and needed another target to discharge their frustration...
Kinda like Germany, 1923.

[Ford Prefect]

I think it's more a question of the fact that America is defining what Freedom and Democracy is, and then bringing that to other countries, when, in truth, Freedom and Democracy should be defining America, not the opposite.

That's a nice idea. However, human-conceived concepts are defined by human interpretation. Force is always going to equal mass x acceleration whether we like it or not, but "freedom" and "democracy" are not universal laws, so we're going to bend them to suit the desires defined by our instincts.