[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Rictor




With something like this, I'm hoping it doesn't work, cause, well, its a fricking plan for a police state.

Ah, but there's no criminals in a police state.

Or is it no innocents?

[Fr3z3r]

Originally posted by vyper
And you aren't Israeli but you'd still complain about the Palestinians.

I 've never said I complain about the Palestinians.

Oh, and I don't care whether you think I've got anything to complain about: my relatives fought and died for your freedom and very survival, so ****ing shut up.

First:

When I said "YOU", I meant vyper, not English people. Sorry about the confusion.

Second:

vyper, MY relatives fought and died too. They fought and died in september 1939, then in the Battle of Britain (where they helped RAF significantly, has to be said), then in Italy. So it's not like I don't understand your point of view.

However, I still think you (vyper) and I have nothing to complain about here. I respect what your ancestors did, but I think you have no right to claim that things that took place before you (heck, maybe even your parents) were born justify your present "demands".

[Bobboau]

"In international conflicts, guerrillas must distinguish themselves from the civilian population if they are preparing or engaged in an attack."

so, the people we are fighting are not covered by the convention, how lovely.

[IceFire]

The only good thing is getting people out to work.  If everyone is busy, being paid, and eating food...then the other problems will start to disappear.  Why?  Because the majority of people aren't going around blowing stuff up because they disagree with whats going on...its because they disagree AND the current situation has gained them nothing.  They have no jobs and have nothing to do.

[Zarax]

Arbeit Macht Frei...
Quite interesting concept...

[aldo_14]

No, it means they should be treated with regards to local law - i.e. as criminals.  I don't have to read it (which I'm doing at the mo, but I really do have to actually do work as well ), to know that there will be nothing in the Geneva convention that allows torture to be used against prisoners, regardless of their combatant status.

EDIT; oh, and let's not forget the international convention on human rights.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by IceFire
The only good thing is getting people out to work.  If everyone is busy, being paid, and eating food...then the other problems will start to disappear.  Why?  Because the majority of people aren't going around blowing stuff up because they disagree with whats going on...its because they disagree AND the current situation has gained them nothing.  They have no jobs and have nothing to do.

The other problem  is when you get the various insurgents / terrorists who target anyone working for western companies, etc; that sort of fear is going to be a major problem IMO.

It's possibly beneficial; obviously one thing Iraqis need is money to live. Albiet they'll both need to rebuild the utilities quick-sharp, and they'll have to work particularly hard if they (the US) don't want to look like they're press ganging people.

Oh, and if you have a bunch of Iraqis working in a large group overseen by armed US troops, a lot of the Arab world is going to take one look and think 'slavery'.

[Clave]

Why can't we just have one thread with all the war stuff in it?

[MicroPsycho]

Bush is persistent on getting Canada to take part in his north american multi-billion dollar missile defence system.

But does Canada need a missile defence system? Its Canada, no one's going to nuke Canada...

[aldo_14]

No-ones going to nuke Scotland either, but we still ended up with a nuclear sub base.....

[aldo_14]

I don't know.  So we can have the same arguements over & over again?

[Kazan]

the damn missile defense system doesn't ****ing work anyway --- they had to rig the tests to get it to bat better than .500 and it still was less than .750!

[redmenace]

Why can't we give thread names a little more logical names to them to.

So we can prevent travestys like this
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,28369.msg575929.html#msg575929

I should read the forums closly first but I didn't see anything that looked like this.

As for the matter of what they are doing. Will this prevent the insurgents from sneaking back in? Will this encourage inhabitants to aid insurgents?

Frankly, this is not the way to deal with the Sunnis.

Premis 1.
The Sunnis are afraid of losing power or being persecuted in an unified Iraqi state but the Shiites and the Kurds.

Premis 2.
Majority of the violence is occuring in the Sunni Triangle.

Premis 3. The US wants peace in the area and to participate in elections.

Premis 4. It is possible such a tightly controlled population might resent such actions.

I think it is logical to assume this:

Conclusion. This will only make things worse.

[Gank]

Vyper:

"The NMO which is very familiar with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its officials towards Zionist activities within Germany and the Zionist emigration program takes the view that:

   1. Common interests can exist between a European New Order based on the German concept and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as embodied by the NMO.
   2. Cooperation is possible between the New Germany and a renewed, folkish-national Jewry.
   3. The establishment of the Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, and bound by treaty, with the German Reich, would be in the interest of maintaining and strengthening the future German position of power in the Near East.

"On the basis of these considerations, and upon the condition that the German Reich government recognize the national aspirations of the Israel Freedom Movement mentioned above, the NMO in Palestine offers to actively take part in the war on the side of Germany.

"This offer by the NMO could include military, political and informational activity within Palestine and, after certain organizational measures, outside as well. Along with this the "Jewish" men of Europe would be militarily trained and organized in military units under the leadership and command of the NMO. They would take part in combat operations for the purpose of conquering Palestine, should such a front be formed.

"The indirect participation of the Israel Freedom Movement in the New Order of Europe, already in the preparatory stage, combined with a positive-radical solution of the European-Jewish problem on the basis of the national aspirations of the Jewish people mentioned above, would greatly strengthen the moral foundation of the New Order in the eyes of all humanity.

"The cooperation of the Israel Freedom Movement would also be consistent with a recent speech by the German Reich Chancellor, in which Hitler stressed that he would utilize any combination and coalition in order to isolate and defeat England".

Original document in German Auswertiges Amt Archiv, Bestand 47-59, E224152 and E234155-58. Complete original text published in: David Yisraeli, The Palestinian Problem in German Politics 1889-1945 (Israel: 1947 pp. 315-317).

Letter from Lehi addressed to Hitler, 1941. Dont confuse the holocaust survivors with the likes of Irgun, Lehi or Haganah, non of these boys were in concentration camps, nor did the care about those who were:

"If I knew it was possible to save all the children in Germany by taking them to England, and only half of the children by taking them to Eretz Israel, I would choose the second solution. For we must take into account not only the lives of these children but also the history of the people of Israel."

David Ben Gurion, Israel's first head of State, speaking to Labor Zionists on December 7th 1938.

[Thrilla]

Originally posted by Tiara
It's basically a "You do it, that means we can do it too!" stance that these troops have taken against Iraqi prisoners. They are no better then the Iraqi fighters and terrorists themselves IMO.

Yes these abuses are wrong without a doubt.  These soldiers are definately in the wrong and shouldn't have done it, but to say they are no better than the Iraqi fighters is a little far IMHO.  I bet your actions would be a little different if your brothers were shot and killed or severly wounded and you track one down I bet in a fit of rage you would do the same thing.  I don't doubt I'd probably would in the same situation.  I don't sympathize with them and they DEFINATELY shouldn't have done it, but I do understand that it happens sometimes and it should be brought to everyone's attention.  The American Army and the Marine Corp doesn't condone this kind of action and ANY soldier/s and/or marine/s that is caught peforming these actions will be taken care of.  You read UCMJ, it isn't very nice to violators.  

Originally posted by aldo_14
No, it means they should be treated with regards to local law - i.e. as criminals. to know that there will be nothing in the Geneva convention that allows torture to be used against prisoners, regardless of their combatant status.

EDIT; oh, and let's not forget the international convention on human rights.

You are exactly right.  They should be treated with the laws of the National or Local Government.  But I wonder if they should be prosecuted under those kinds of laws however, since many areas of that part of the world heat up spoons and burn your tongue to see if you are lying.  

[Gank]

Originally posted by MicroPsycho
multi-billion dollar

probably the reason hes being so persistant.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Thrilla

You are exactly right.  They should be treated with the laws of the National or Local Government.  But I wonder if they should be prosecuted under those kinds of laws however, since many areas of that part of the world heat up spoons and burn your tongue to see if you are lying.  

That's why I added 'international humanitarian laws'.  Also, I believe the US overturned the laws and punishments of the previous regime simply due to the political necessity of it; just look at the debate over whether the death penalty should be applicable to Saddam.

And, of course, we're still going into the 'they're bad so we're ok if we're not quite so bad' arguement here.

[Thrilla]

Well you could also argue that for the past 30 years these are the same people that have been living under a man that if you disagreed with him publicly that you would be put in prison and shot.  And that firmness and fear is the only thing these people understand.  It's not my opinion, but it is something to think about.

I think it is something worth trying.  Nothing else hasn't worked yet, and maybe giving them something to do and a little money in their pocket might actually help.  I honestly don't believe in this winning hearts and minds non-sense.  You simply can't.  Look at Vietnam.  In 10 years they hadn't complished hardly anything.  I don't think we should be there personally, but since Dubya has gone up and overthrown Saddam we can't just leave anytime soon unfortunately.  You have to stablize the region now, so you won't have a breeding ground for terrorist.  It's funny how politicians are so easily to commit our forces to causes sometimes without thinking about how it affects the men, but then again we volunteered for it.  

[aldo_14]

It's not being built by Halliburton, is it?

[Flipside]

Originally posted by .::Tin Can::.


I did read it Flipside. I specifically said "turning my back on it" which is basically the same thing as "closing your eyes" to the subject.

It's a metaphorical referance, pertaining to "ignoring" the subject or baseline argument being stated. Both references, "turning your back" or "closing your eyes" can be refered to, pertaining to the subject and not physical reference, be the same thing.

I did read your post.

Jetmech: I wouldn't be surprised, if thats what you mean.

Dear God, you truly are surfboarding along the paranoia event horizon aren't you? You take one phrase included in a sentence which accuses you of being aware of it and not wanting to get involved into me accusing you of pretending it didn't happen.

So far in this post you have changed your opinion 3 times, first they were all terrorists, then the terrorists did worse to us, and finally, it wasn't important anyway because you'd seen it all before. To cut a long story short, you don't even know why you are supporting this other than the fact it was performed by American Soldiers.