[Kazan]

ford: religion is both the result of irrationality, and the cause of further irrationality

because it makes people think they're justified in what they think


religion was once an important part of civilizational developement - we've outgrown such childish things now

no - not all philosophy is irrational, i know some very damn rational philosophy

furthermore Emotion, Art aren't where logic needs to worry - emotion and art are not issues of whether something is factual or not

logic doesn't belong in emotions play ground, and emotion doesn't belong in logic's play ground

religion is in and of itself a BAD thing - because it is the resultant of irrational consideration of subjects involving facts --- spirituality os part of the human identity, it doesn't means it's a GOOD one

our basic irrationality is something to be overcome

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Rictor
Being irrational is part of being human. Emotions are irrational. Art is irrational. All philosophy is irrational.

Do you even know the meaning of 'irrational'?

- Emotions; Aren't irrational as long as you control them and not the other way around.
- Art; It is a form of expression. If expresion is irrational we should all stop talking while were at it.
- Philosophy; It's the foundation of every belief, science and fact of this world. Is that irrational?

[Kazan]

flipside the last thing religion is about is honesty - and has nothing to do with admitting something greater than ones self can exist

it's entirely to do with making oneself feel important, and significant (this is from a psychological analysis!)

[Blaise Russel]

According to one theory I've heard, religion is born out of a "fundamental psychological need for man to be able to transact with his enviroment."

Apparently.

[Flipside]

That depends on the religion, and is why I hate churches

[Ford Prefect]

Taken from Hemingway's "A Clean, Well-Lighted Place," one of my favorite stories and a superb example of existential thought:

"Good night," the other said. Turning off the electric light he continued the conversation with himself, It was the light of course but it is necessary that the place be clean and pleasant. You do not want music. Certainly you do not want music. Nor can you stand before a bar with dignity although that is all that is provided for these hours. What did he fear? It was not a fear or dread, It was a nothing that he knew too well. It was all a nothing and a man was a nothing too. It was only that and light was all it needed and a certain cleanness and order. Some lived in it and never felt it but he knew it all was nada y pues nada y nada y pues nada. Our nada who art in nada, nada be thy name thy kingdom nada thy will be nada in nada as it is in nada. Give us this nada our daily nada and nada us our nada as we nada our nadas and nada us not into nada but deliver us from nada; pues nada. Hail nothing full of nothing, nothing is with thee. He smiled and stood before a bar with a shining steam pressure coffee machine.

Yeah, art and philosophy are rational.

Religion is art and philosophy. It is an exploration our perceptions, of the half of our existence that cannot be described with equations. It's not just fairy tales made up to explain lighting and thunder. Our mythologies are a psychoanalysis of humanity. The fact that most people are too stupid to understand the abstract nature of their own religion doesn't detract from this point.

[Rictor]

I define irrational as illogical. I can't really define it without just reverting to using synonyms. The presence of feelings or emotions or convictions which run contrary to a)survival b)the advancement of your position in life.

...in other words, doing things differently than say, a Vulcan (you get the point)  would.

Art is, in objective terms, useless. As are most emotions such as love, fun, justice, freedom. Pondering  existential questions s useless, since there is no answer, and even if there was, it wouldn't really benefit you (except mentally) to know it.  Many, maybe most, of the things which humans do are well beyond the scope of rational self-preservation, and sometimes directly contrary to it. Dying for a loved one, how is that rational? Having hope despite a hopeless situation, how is that rational? Craving freedom and justice for their own sake, how is that rational? Displaying compassopn even when it benefits you nothing, how is that rational?

[Kazan]

philosophy _can_ be irrational, but philosophy can also be rational/logic -- my philosohpy is

[Ford Prefect]

The fact that you're so sure is inherently irrational.

[Tiara]

Without philosophy we'd still be in the stoneage...

We wouldn't create fire because we wouldn't think of what it could mean. We wouldn't create tools because we wouldn't think why it could be usefull. The very basic foundation of humanity is philosophy.

Philosophy can be wrong, but so can mathematics. The fact that something is wrong doesn't make it irrational. The fact that something is wrong only presents the oppertunity to learn from our mistakes.

In short; The question ' Why?' is the most important question of our existence.

[vyper]

It's called Imperialism. Take it from a Brit, we have a bit of experience in this area.

The difference between this and most other western attempts at such acts is that this is being done as a state act so blatently.

[Flipside]

Were it not for religion, the Sun would not rise in the morning. This is true.

[Thrilla]

I only watched about a dozen or so episodes.

[Ghostavo]

Originally posted by Rictor
Many, maybe most, of the things which humans do are well beyond the scope of rational self-preservation, and sometimes directly contrary to it. Dying for a loved one, how is that rational? Having hope despite a hopeless situation, how is that rational? Craving freedom and justice for their own sake, how is that rational? Displaying compassopn even when it benefits you nothing, how is that rational?

Game theory...

[Kazan]

Ford: no it's not - it means i have EVIDENCE

[Ford Prefect]

Tiara, that's not philosophy, that's science! The discovery of the usefulness of fire was a leap for the scientific side of us, not the philosophical. To pursue philosophy is to pursue questions to which you accept there are no answers. Mathematical conclusions may be wrong, but they're only wrong because there is a "right."

Kazan, you have no evidence because there is none. One of the greatest failures of the human mind is the ease with which a person becomes convinced that he is right. You may know what you believe is right and wrong, and I may even agree with you, but nobody knows. As Shakespeare, among others, said: "The fool doth think himself wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool." You haven't experienced the complexity of your existence until you have lost confidence in everything you believe to be true.

[Kazan]

no the pursuit of philosophy is the pursuit of a way to live/way to think

and can be completely rational

i have no evidence or what? eh? what was i being specific about?

[NGTM-1R]

The only antidote to misuse of freedom of speech is more freedom of speech.

You can make your opposition known, sure, but otherwise, get over it.

[Deepblue]

Originally posted by Gank


  http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2004/12/05/news/national/1b9193edfb87b84887256f60000aec4a.txt
Associated Press is extremist now? Or is it the online photo album they found them on? Some of you Yanks are starting to lose your grip on reality with all this terrorist bs. See whats happening:
http://www.sundayherald.com/46389
http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20041203-053525-8262r.htm

Maybe if yis stopped kicking in Iraqi nobodys heads and actually went out and caught some real terrorists your war on terror might get some support.

Please understand me. The associated press got a hold of the pics when they were FIRST POSTED ON AN ISLAMIC EXTREMIST website. Thats why all the prisoners have their faces blacked out (a rather bad job of it at that). The AP doesn't do that.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally posted by Kazan
no the pursuit of philosophy is the pursuit of a way to live/way to think

and can be completely rational

i have no evidence or what? eh? what was i being specific about?

Kazan, you're confusing philosophy with ethics. Ethics is the decision you reach about how you think you ought to live your life. Philosophy is the act of questioning those very things.

It doesn't matter what you're talking about. Unless you're discussing something purely in a scientific or mathematical context, you have no indisputable evidence of anything.