Author Topic: Space Unknown  (Read 8061 times)

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Offline Inquisitor

In researching my Endeavor project (after the presentation in October, I plan on porting it to an independent engine), I have run across a number of USEFUL references.

The Tribes 2 engine (soon to be available) at http://www.garagegames.com

The Genesis 3D engine (http://www.genesis3d.com)

The Fly 3D Engine (actually has built ship combat examples) at http://www.fly3d.com.br

Morfit (http://www.3dstate.com/ also has lots of flight potential)

All of these engines are free or cheap, and have lots of prebuilt examples, so if you have few programmers, you have a jump start.

Programming references:
Morfit has a 200 page book for free (3D Programming for Windows) on their site, 3 books that are proving invaluable to me in addition to the morfit book are:

"3D Games: Real Time Rendering and Software Technology" from Addision-Welsey publishing (the Fly 3d text book)

"3D Game Engine Design: A Practical Approach to Real-Time Computer Graphics" by David Eberly fromMorgan-Kaufmann Publishing

And finally: "Beginning Direct 3D Game Programming" from Prima Tech books by . Engel.

As far as Ace, et al's concerns, be sure you pick up a copy of "Game Design Secrets of the Sages" from Brady Games books. That will give you a sense of the real challenges you face and suggestions for overcoming them in a game world  

There are of course numerous good books on managing software projects, the best of which is probably "Code Complete" from Microsoft Press.

Good luck, you have set out on an ambitious project.
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Offline Ace

  • Truth of Babel
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    • http://www.lordofrigel.com
Inquisitor: Ever the source of bountiful and useful knowledge.  

Actually, Tribes 2 does not have arbitrary geo-mod, Redfaction does, you should check it out.  



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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
 http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/
Ace
Self-plagiarism is style.
-Alfred Hitchcock

 
doh thats what i was thinking of. sorry ace i hope we can include that it would make for an interesting addition.

Inquisitor thanx i cam across thse engines in my searc but not the books your info will help greatly  

Hearing about the 1 1/2 old celedon system don't you guys agree that if designers had started making games 2 years ago( in anticipation of the 1ghz 256 ram and geforce 3 pixle shading ability)the games would be incredible.

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Romall Smith
Space Unknown
Romall Smith
Space Unknown

 

Offline Shrike

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Maybe you can talk to Kenny and get him to turn 5th sun into a 3D game.  
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Starwing

  • Guest
Manphoenix:

Maybe, but the 1 1/2 year old system couldn't run it, also my 500 mHz Celeron couldnt, and a lot of othes couldn't run it too. All those people couldn't play the games, and so, wouldn't buy it. See the point?
Most people simply don't have the resources of the newest hardware, so games are made for what the mayority of people have, not what they could get.

[This message has been edited by Starwing (edited 04-07-2001).]

 
Halo is a game that you may not beable to play on your system. The games coming out in the next year or two are going to require that you upgrade something. whether it be ram, processer, modem, hard drive or what ever. if you have a 4 gig hard drive you have to upgrade to have more then 1 or 2 games on your system. MW4 is over a gig in size some of the nex gen are over 1.5 gig.

In 3 years games may be upwords of 5 gigs a piece if not more. point is that you are  have upgrade at some point, everyone does.
We don't want to cut off a possiable income source but we don't want are game to suffer because we wanted more money.

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Romall Smith
Space Unknown
Romall Smith
Space Unknown

 

Offline Jabu

  • One of our many cases
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Technology marches on. Either you have the cash to keep up or you fall off.

 

Offline Nico

  • Venom
    Parlez-vous Model Magician?
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Yes, right, but talking f mw4 I can't have it JUST because I don't have enough room on my HD. I won't buy Hallo because my comp won't be able to handle it. When I'll have a comp that can make it run (in 2, 3 years?), hallo will be outdated, a old game that I won't buy. I buy games that I can run, that's not more complicated than than. Wehn Strike commander came out, I had a 286, and I couldn't run it. My next computer was a 486, Strike commander was no mpre, better games were out. Strike commander was to my knowledge the first flight sim with mapping. A big step isn't it? I missed it, because I couldn't play it. I had the occasion to play it after, it was just a boring experience. Don't mistake me, I don't mean SC should have thrown away it's beautif and all new revolutionary bitmaps just so I can play on my poor 16mhz comp. But at this time I could have demos that for long used smooth bitmap (and even some bump mapping, can you imagine this???). And they ran perfectly on my computer! So it's just an advice: when I see what my computer can do (sacrifices works perfectly on my computer), I have no reason to change it, and so I won't change it for one new game that has been misprogrammed for the dull reason that in 2 years, there will be 2.5 Gh computers.

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venom2506
Member of the Robotech mod for FS2

and of Hidden Terror, the Shivan campaign

and My own page
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Inquisitor

All part of the service  

Oh, and hosting of servers that can handle 1000's of players will be too expensive. Unless you have financing, and a lot of it.

And, creating a client-server environment like that is ALOT different than your typical peer-peer game. Diablo II has the realms, Asheron's Call and EQ come to mind as well. They have tremendous challenges just keep the service running, let alone the naked expense of hosting. Diablo Realm servers are hosted at Exodus.

I have built datacenters at Exodus facilities. BELIEVE me, you don't have the money yet. Once you start getting into the 1000's of concurrent connections, you start having to care about real time loadbalancing (F5 makes a hardware load balancer that works for alot of IP based trafiic, as does Cisco, plan on 6-25 thousand dollars each, and plan on buying 2 of them, and plan on having to modify them to work with non-web UDP traffic.), and then you have to consider the machines that the service actually runs on. Not your average desktops, take the Compaq DL580, 4 Processors, 1 gig of RAM, 5x18gb SCSI disks, with WinNT4.0 enterprise licenses, 20 k a pop. Not to mention the enterprise class databse you will need to build and maintain to keep track of all those players   Sure you can save a little cash by going Linux for the backend, but the hardware doesn't get any cheaper   And I haven't even hinted at the money you need to host at a place like Exodus. Blizzard can afford it because Diablo has topped the sales charts since it's release, and they probably have a colo deal that a new-to-the-field group won't have. AC can do it because they are backed by MS and charge for their service. EQ can do it because EQ is like crack. Ultima Online couldn't do it, so they cancelled.

Build the peer-peer game first, the centralized server things is a whole world of financial hurt you want to avoid your first time out. It will be challenging enough. I'd recommend going for a reasonable player limit per game (if you are really using the Tribes 2 engine, which is a good choice for large areas and large numbers of players, 60 sounds like a good number), and supporting that with AI. Sorta a combination Tribes and Starcraft  

Anyway, first things first. Have your 3 programmers grab one of the other engines while we wait for garagegames to notify us, and build some demos. Morfit was the easiest, or try one of the others. Just build a ship-ship multiplayer (2 player) game that fly's over some terrain. Have the ship be stock models. That becomes your tech demo, your "proof of concept" for some of the basic stuff. Take that skeleton game and swap models and terrain out, make sure you are good at that kind of stuff, then add models to it, etc. Will give you a CLEAR indication of what you are getting into and what you need to do to succeed  

Of course, write EVERYTING down.

[This message has been edited by Inquisitor (edited 04-07-2001).]
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that was a good game, strike force. I don't expect people to upgrade for my game. Though i know many people that upgrade when a game of epic scale is released. many poeple only buy a computer every 4 years at best. Others get a new one every year. I hope we can malke i god enough to last a few years but also give lowend players the chance to play one another on LANs or with the grapics turned all the way down  .

I play alot of games and my voodoo won't handle then as well as a geforce 2 so this summer i am upgrading to geforce 3. If i don't i won't be able to play the games coming later this year.


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Romall Smith
Space Unknown
Romall Smith
Space Unknown

 

Offline Inquisitor

Hehe, decided to add commentary to my quip above, and someone slid in and replied  
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hehe thanx for the info. we have a meeting tonight so ill talk to everyone about it. Yea the arena idea is what we wanted to do if we have time or if not do after the game comes out.

Yea 64 is what tribes has and we get the source to that so we may just go with 64.

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Romall Smith
Space Unknown
Romall Smith
Space Unknown

 
Hey Ace got you some info that relates the the geo-mod possiablitys


Pat Wilson -GarageGames

I'm not sure that everyone grasps the magnitutde of what V12 is. This isn't an exe file that you write a few scripts for, make a few models for, slap some maps into and boom, you're done. This is a game engine, this is raw source code. It is absolutly no problem to add another object into the list of things to render. (Essentially adding it to the world)

You could dynamically add buildings without redoing the lightmap. It'd be a bit more difficult, but you could just multitexture the landscape texture or existing lightmap. Know what I mean? You'd have to have a set texture for that building at the light angle know what I mean.

About the importing...umm well you can if you write the importer =) Once again...full source.

Edit:
About the destruction, there are different ways of doing this. You could have set spots that would destruct, which is currently the way to do this...or you could have some fun with it and do some boolean geometry operations. I belive there's something on constructive solid geometry in Flipcode somewhere, and it's something I'm very interested in. Basically to create the effect I think you're after, you'd take an explosion radius, probably modeled as a sphere (invisiable of course, or you could the sphere for the explosion special effect if you do it that way) and check if that sphere intersected any polygons currently in the world. If it did, you'd want to clip everything that was inside the sphere, basically I'd do it this way: Any vertices that intersected with the sphere would replace the vertices of the triangles that continue further. [For whatever reason I can't seem to communicate what I mean in this idea] Ok, say you have a triangle a,b,c. The top point is a, bottom points are b and c. The explosion radius comes, and after the check, we find it contains vertex a. There are now two vertices that need to be created, one on line ab and one on line ac. So you create vertices, a1 and a2, and then you have a quad. Divide that quad into two triangles and you're done. (The engine may allow the use of quads, but usually it's either triangles or n-gons...it'd be cool to redo the engine to use n-gons *puts it on a list of things that'd be cool to do*) Now, this (obviously) requires processing time, and I'm not sure if, in your application, it would be worth doing.

Edit2:
Now that I think about it, it may be much more complicated to add this to the engine because tree data structures aren't really useful for data that changes a lot. And since V12 uses Octrees, I'm not sure how easy it would be to do this, it'd be possible, just not feasable perhaps. I guess it all would boil down to, "How badly do you want to be able to do this."
Romall Smith
Space Unknown

 

Offline Inquisitor

The Red Facttion engine was designed with so called "geo mod" from the start.

V12 is an engine. It's a mechanism of rendering polygons and lighting them. It's physics and terrain modelling and world building and avatar control. It PROBABLY has collision detection, but you may have to write that.

That's it. Everything else you have to write. I'd pass on the "geomod" not necessary to make a truly remarkable game.

Good storys, compelling graphics, avatar control (can I fly a ship, run around like a monkey, or get in a tank?). That's what makes Tribes 2 pretty spiffy. Think about the games you REALLY dig, you get to do things that reflect to your personality. And you are entertained at the same time   The other stuff (including "geomod") is just sauce. GOOD sauce, mind you, but not necesary  

Recent games that made a mark on me:

Giants
Mechwarrior 4
Tribes 2

Each game let me play the way I wanted to play, against other people or AI, that were playing in totally different styles. Mech 4 has what, a dozen different vehicles, and a couple of dozen weapons? And I can mix and match? Giants: speed boat racing, shooter, play a 60 foot godzilla. Tribes 2: Tanks, planes, bikes, snipers, engineers, lions, tigers, bears, oh my!

Before that it was the Freespace series and Descent 3. I could bomb, escort, dogfight, whatever   Descent 3 let me tunnel dive or *gasp* go outside and dogfight.

I want control, variety, and a good solid story. Give me some of each of the 3 above, and I will play the game  
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Offline Ace

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Inq is right, Geo-Mod is sauce, but good sauce.

It allows for in space-sims the effect of heavy weapons doing proper damage on large scale targets. (i.e. bomb type weapons creating craters, beam weaponry tearing holes in ships, etc.)

I'd make a suggestion that when working on the game mechanics, mention everything you want within the design document, however keep a plotline to a minimum. (keep everything to it's basic points 'ten races' is easily 'ten factions which are unique in how they interact with eachother')

This allows your writers maximum room, while you can focus on getting gameplay to work.

Later on, when you have the ideas like "we want this group to have an ammo based weapon that does this and have a cool special effect" listed, then have the writers work out everything about the weapon, and the artists base their concepts from that.

Often writers and artists have to backtrack from the lead designer's wants of what the plot and look would be, but if the lead designers and programmers focus on the idea behind the device, and give the talents more leeway, then you'll wind up with something a lot more original. (this is from observing the developers who handle their game design in this fashion)

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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
 http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/
Ace
Self-plagiarism is style.
-Alfred Hitchcock

 
 I talked with my team and they decided that we are going to do a few things.

30 diverse missions for each race. That way you can play the other side of some battles.

Geo-mod, we had talked about it a while ago. The programmers decided that if they have time they will add it if not they will add it after launch

Ace had a good point about factions so we are looking into adding a few factions. that is also based on the amount of time we have.

One of the races got the ax and another may as well. so that will leave 5 races for the community to help us come up with.

last bit of news we are still on track  
we have another meeting thursday and saturday so ill keep you guys posted.
Romall Smith
Space Unknown