[Grey Wolf]

I really didn't like Wing Zero that much. Draws far too much attention to itself by that massive cannon, and isn't an innovative design at all, as it's basically an evolution on the original Gundam.  I prefer Deathscythe, and it's equivalent in SEED....

[BlackDove]

Originally posted by Liberator
I also see that you are a Wing fanboi and are unwilling to accept that there are better Gundams out there.

Of course, because there are none. Facts aren't up for discussion.

And fine by me if you want to move on...

[Liberator]

Let's look at some objective numbers shall we?
mahq.net lists Zero's fighting numbers as:
fighting 150
weapons 150
speed 160
power 140
armor 140
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/w/xxxg-00w0.htm
Those numbers are based on assumptions that a standard Leo type suit acheives 100 in all those areas.  The Zero's only ace is that massive cannon, which, once done away with, leaves the Zero with significantly reduced options.  It's still a monumental step above a basic standard issue suit, but without it's cannon it's no better or worse than the Deathscythe.

The Freedom on the other hand is incapable of being disarmed aside from massive structual damage.  The Freedom is also armored with Phase Shift armor that renders the suit virtually invulnerable to enemy fire within certain limits.

The pathetic Zero has it's gundanium armor certainly, but as was shown in the series, that is far from indestructible when beam weapons are in play.

So it stacks up like this:

Zero vs. Nu: Heero takes an early advantage and destroys several of Amuro's funnels.  But Amuro quickly discovers that much of Zero's power is in the bloody cannon.  He launches a blitzkreig with the remaining bits and dashes in to disarm Zero and destroy the "Buster Rifle" and then man-handles the Zero and dis-members it leaving the cockpit intact so he can gloat(he is an arrogant little prick after all)


Zero vs. Freedom: Heero gets a lucky shot with the Buster Rifle at 50% power and is stunned speechless when it doesn't appear to damage the Freedom at all.  Kira responds, launching an all out assault with every weapon the Freedom has, from his "Balaena" plasma beam cannons(shoulders) to the "Xiphias" rail guns (hips).  The Xiphias holes Zero's legs cutting the control linkages and forcing Heero to rely on his backpack vernier systems, meanwhile, the Balaena has done less significant, but telling damage all the same blowing off one shoulder armor section and evaporating half the "face" armor completely, along with the sensors behind it.  Heero, blinded and helpless before a far superior enemy tries his favorite tactic, an incompetent attempt to kamikaze the enemy and blow himself to hell.  He fails for the third time.  And Kira surgically removes the cockpit and then explains to Heero why he was wrong to attack him and Heero is heard responding that Releena would probably like him.

I don't know what came over me, but there it is.

[Genryu]

Eeerrrrr.... As shown in Seed during his battle with Providence, Freedom is able to be destroyed by beam weapon too. And Given the sheer power contained in the Buster Rifle (munchkin weapon if there was ever one), one shot, even at 50% power, should be sufficient to destroy Freedom, if it isn't partially dodged or blocked with a shield.

[BlackDove]

Originally posted by Liberator
Let's look at some objective numbers shall we?
mahq.net lists Zero's fighting numbers as:
fighting 150
weapons 150
speed 160
power 140
armor 140
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/w/xxxg-00w0.htm
Those numbers are based on assumptions that a standard Leo type suit acheives 100 in all those areas.  The Zero's only ace is that massive cannon, which, once done away with, leaves the Zero with significantly reduced options.  It's still a monumental step above a basic standard issue suit, but without it's cannon it's no better or worse than the Deathscythe.

The Freedom on the other hand is incapable of being disarmed aside from massive structual damage.  The Freedom is also armored with Phase Shift armor that renders the suit virtually invulnerable to enemy fire within certain limits.

The pathetic Zero has it's gundanium armor certainly, but as was shown in the series, that is far from indestructible when beam weapons are in play.

So it stacks up like this:

Zero vs. Nu: Heero takes an early advantage and destroys several of Amuro's funnels.  But Amuro quickly discovers that much of Zero's power is in the bloody cannon.  He launches a blitzkreig with the remaining bits and dashes in to disarm Zero and destroy the "Buster Rifle" and then man-handles the Zero and dis-members it leaving the cockpit intact so he can gloat(he is an arrogant little prick after all)


Zero vs. Freedom: Heero gets a lucky shot with the Buster Rifle at 50% power and is stunned speechless when it doesn't appear to damage the Freedom at all.  Kira responds, launching an all out assault with every weapon the Freedom has, from his "Balaena" plasma beam cannons(shoulders) to the "Xiphias" rail guns (hips).  The Xiphias holes Zero's legs cutting the control linkages and forcing Heero to rely on his backpack vernier systems, meanwhile, the Balaena has done less significant, but telling damage all the same blowing off one shoulder armor section and evaporating half the "face" armor completely, along with the sensors behind it.  Heero, blinded and helpless before a far superior enemy tries his favorite tactic, an incompetent attempt to kamikaze the enemy and blow himself to hell.  He fails for the third time.  And Kira surgically removes the cockpit and then explains to Heero why he was wrong to attack him and Heero is heard responding that Releena would probably like him.

I don't know what came over me, but there it is.

Whoah, there's a mass heap of speculation (actually...illogical speculation...most of it is quite stupid as well, sorry) if I've ever seen some. Slow down, you didn't even get the basics correctly.

Now I see the problem. You don't seem to understand what a One on One battle means.

I'm not talking about character constrictions within the anime, just the suit ones - because that is the only fair way to compare them.

Let's assume for the moment that there ARE other people who can pilot Zero aside from Heero Yui (in fact, throw the characters out of the ****ing equation, we're not discussing characters, we're discussing which GUNDAM is the BEST).

So, assume that your favorite pilot is piloting both the Zero and your favorite Gundam (Freedom as it appears), and try hypothesize on which GUNDAM would win, providing he pilots both to the best of his abilities.

The answer is always the same, and that is "Wing Zero".

Why? The cannon is nice, but it's kinda useless since it's slow. If it DOES land a hit, Game Over - but let's assume that it doesn't since the opposite Gundam Pilot is skilled. What makes Wing Zero superior to everything, is the ZERO system which you seem to be forgetting about quite conveniently.

ZERO SYSTEM+WING ZERO GUNDAM > ANY OTHER GUNDAM.

Get it? It's the Zero system that owns everything, and thusly, the Wing Zero.

We're done. I'm tired of scribbling this very simplistic **** on the board for you.

[Liberator]

So it does always come back to the pilot.

Compared to what, exactly, does the Zero system "own"?  

To my understanding of what it does, it feeds all the combat data directly into the pilots mind thus allowing the pilot to make decisions faster.

Any proper Newtype pilot, will be able to read the Zero's pilot's mind and take appropriate action before the pilot himself can react to the data the Zero system is feeding him.  Also, SEED mode is like having a Zero system inside the brain with all the bonuses that that entails.

[Grey Wolf]

Can't we just call it even and end this argument?

[Liberator]

He started it...

I really just wanted to talk about SEED Destiny as the new eps became available.

[Grey Wolf]

They add any more stealth-type Gundams in either Destiny or SEED after the Strike is destroyed?

[Genryu]

Ep 14 raw is out.
Laughed my head off with the face Yuna was making
Another bit that amused me highly was seeing an Astray throwing is rifle to escape being shot down by Freedom.

[Liberator]

The enemy MS carrier, Girty Lue,  has a mirage colloid system.

But none of the new MSes have stealth capabilities, save for the Abyss ability to manuver underwater.

[Gortef]

yeah, Yuunas whine was comedy gold indeed

[Liberator]

Well, I guess I'm looking forward to monday then.

[Genryu]

I think it will be later than Monday. They've got to remake the opening and ending, since they changed, and this always take a bit of time since nearly every sub group do this karaoke style, and those are simply *****es to time -_-

[Liberator]

Maybe it'll be monday, with no openings.  I mean the content is what really matters.

[BlackDove]

Originally posted by Liberator
So it does always come back to the pilot.

Compared to what, exactly, does the Zero system "own"?  

To my understanding of what it does, it feeds all the combat data directly into the pilots mind thus allowing the pilot to make decisions faster.

Any proper Newtype pilot, will be able to read the Zero's pilot's mind and take appropriate action before the pilot himself can react to the data the Zero system is feeding him.  Also, SEED mode is like having a Zero system inside the brain with all the bonuses that that entails.

And there we are. You have no idea what you're talking about. Next time, learn **** about the topic before you start arguing. Saves time.

However, one more factor put the Wing Zero above everything else: the cockpit's "Zero System," which allowed the pilot's mind to interface directly with the Gundam's combat computer. Although the exact nature of the Zero System's operation is unclear, it appeared to operate by "sampling" the pilot's thoughts and, combining them with current combat data, presented the pilot with various alternate outcomes. Thus, depending on the pilot's mood, the Zero System could tell him/her how to achieve total victory... or decisive defeat. Nevertheless, the mental stresses the Zero System would place on the pilot would be too great for any ordinary human to handle, and even the five mad scientists saw the dangerous turn their work was taking. And thus, the Wing Gundam Zero project was shelved. A copy of the plans went with each of the five scientists when they broke up and went underground to pursue their own individual plans for revolution against OZ. The Wing Zero design would serve as a base model for the five Gundams that would actually be built and sent to Earth.

Zero is the ultimate Gundam, regardless of pilots. Nothing comes down to pilots, because we're talking quality of Gundams. Zero is the best Gundam. Full Stop.

Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
Can't we just call it even and end this argument?

No need, because I won before we started.

Now, because I know most of this is hard to comprehend, I have managed to draw a really complex diagram for you.



Now if you want to discuss pilots in battles, that's a whole other topic.

[Liberator]

I've assembled about a dozen of those models BTW, a local store had a box full on sale for $2 apiece, I even tried different color schemes.  I must say that it looks smashing in black and gold.

I also see that you must have some kind of phallic attachment to that bloody cannon.  Zero's BIGGEST flaw is that damn cannon.  If it's damaged, disarmed or otherwise marginalized(ie close combat, ala Epyon) it's quite easy to defeat him if the MS is worth a damn.

[BlackDove]

Zero owns because of its system.

The cannon is just the thing that makes it scream "RAPE". That's why I like it.

[SadisticSid]

Actually Turn A would own Zero, and every other mobile suit. You just activate Moonlight Butterfly and everything on the planet vaguely technological turns to dust. Even that stupid buster cannon wouldn't be much use when your enemy's attacking you from the other side of the world. Once those nanites are released, game over.

[Grey Wolf]

Epyon could probably take Zero in a duel, as it has the Zero System and better short-range weapons.

Here's a question: How do you think Deathscythe Hell would fare against Gundams from the other series, assuming neither side had Newtypes for pilots?