[Flipside]

Laws such as this aren't there to protect intelligent people though Rictor. Come to think of it, if you approached it from the 'Darwinism' point of view, I'd be semi-inclined to agree, however, even two lives lost because of one person taking a chosen risk, is one too many.

[Rictor]

I'm glad I can provide some amusement kara, I would hate to think that I contribute nothing at all to enriching your day.

[karajorma]

Oh you do. I always find it amusing to watch someone trying to defend a ludicrous position

[Rictor]

Better to hear the sound of jackboots at every turn than not to hear them at all.

And before you say that I live in a black and white world, you have to be biased to one side, thats implicit in any linear system such as that of Societal or State rights vs Individual rights. You are simply biased to the opposite side, which makes you no better.

(this in itself is subjective, since who is to determine where the centre is?)

[Flipside]

I think the thing is, you need to bring education into the system first. Humans have a wonderful habit of ignoring what they don't want to believe, I do it, you do, everyone here does to a certain extent, it's human nature.

How can we tell whether someone truly understands the threat that not wearing a seatbelt can cause. How old are you before you become aware that cessation of (earthly - to avoid conflict) life is going to happen to you too, no matter how much you pretend otherwise?

When I was 17, it was 'cool' not to wear a seatbelt, and it was not law to do so. I myself was not immune to the angst-flooded teenage disease I lost 3 friends who were 'cool', because of one stupid person. Now, nothing can change that, you could call it Darwinism in a way, and yet, did they really understand the cost of not looking like a geek? I don't know for certain.

It's that age group I worry about to be honest. When you're 17, death is something that happens to other people.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Rictor

If it ceased to be illegal not to do so, would you still wear your seatbelt? What do you think about society (or your society) at large? If the benefits are as obvious as you claim, why would reject them?

I don't know.  If I had not been brought up in a country where the law existed, possibly not.

But it's very obvious why those benefits would be/are rejected; seatbelts are uncomfortable and you're not guaranteed to have a crash.  some people don't think agead.

Originally posted by Rictor

We are losing some freedom, whether or not it is too much is a subjective matter.

My problem is not with this or that issue specifically. My problem is with the process, and it is a steady process, of giving up individual freedoms in order to "benefit society".

What I see is an unmistakable trend of people people handing over their rights, mostly for minor things such as this (or the smoking bans), which on the surface benefit everyone. However, I am not naive enough to believe that this will stop anytime soon.

Imagine that you asked someone like Kazan (or to a lesser degree you and kara) to write down EVERY societal change that they would like to implement (all for the good, of course). Now, imagine that you magically implemented EVERY single thing on that list.

How long do you think it would be before they found a new cause to fight, for people's own benefit of course? Now long before they found some other thing which should be adjusted, some new law that should be made, to make society a better, happier place? Alright, so they make a new list, and you implement EVERY desired change. Now long before they make a new list?

When right are taken away in a matter of days or weeks, it called dictatorship. When they are taken away in a matter of decades or centuries, its called living in a modern Western democracy. Its is a sure and one-way process, which is why I am loathe to give even an inch.

Regardless of the cost in human life?

Equating not being able to smoke in public, or having to buckle up, as being equivalent to Nazi Germany, or Facist Italy, or Stalins Russia, etc, is sheer insanity.  What do you want?  Do you want complete freedom - so we can rape, murder, etc?  Or none?

Or do you want something outside the black an white view where some laws can be instigated for the common good of society?  To protect people, perhaps? Maybe where, I dunno, we actually consider the issue as it stands on its own merits rather than some surrealist nightmare/wonderland decades or centuries down the road, populated by the allegories that suit our opinion of an unrelated issue?

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Rictor
Better to hear the sound of jackboots at every turn than not to hear them at all.  

Again more black and white thinking. It is not better to hear the sound if it's all in your head. What you need to do is hear the sound only when real jackboots are making it. You don't you hear them all the time.

Originally posted by Rictor
And before you say that I live in a black and white world, you have to be biased to one side, thats implicit in any linear system such as that of Societal or State rights vs Individual rights. You are simply biased to the opposite side, which makes you no better.

(this in itself is subjective, since who is to determine where the centre is?)

Not true. I keep mentioning the Child Porn thread cause it really shows how black and white your thinking actually is. In that thread you had two sets of individual rights.
 The right of an individual to own child porn against the right of an individual to know child porn involving themselves isn't being distributed. In all moral and legal terms the second one is the greater right. Yet you came down on the side of the paedophiles on the grounds of their individual rights. You completely ignored the victims individual rights.

There are plenty of times I've supported the right of an individual over that of society too. You don't, ever. That's why I call your thinking black and white.

[Flipside]

I feel like I'm posting in a different dimension...

[Cabbie]

Originally posted by Flipside


I feel like I'm posting in a different dimension...

Me too. Rictor has about enough passion as that anti-seat belt fellow. You got to admire that though...

[vyper]

If you take the position that a driver alone in a car, wearing no seat belt, poses only a danger to himself as a result, we can make this comparison:

To protect my freedom I am willing to risk major terrorist attacks on my country - I don't want "protected" by people like Tony Blair or his former home secratery David Blunkett. I want my freedom first and my security second. The same principle applied to wearing a seatbelt can surely be no different?

[Clave]

It makes sense.

And sometimes the law has to be there to force people along the path of common sense...

Same with crash helmets on motorcycles - a lot of people moaned about it, but it has saved lives...

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Clave
It makes sense.

And sometimes the law has to be there to force people along the path of common sense...

Same with crash helmets on motorcycles - a lot of people moaned about it, but it has saved lives...

[Vertigo1]

Originally posted by Clave
It makes sense.

And sometimes the law has to be there to force people along the path of common sense...

Same with crash helmets on motorcycles - a lot of people moaned about it, but it has saved lives...

Exactly.  If we go by Rictor's logic, we shouldn't have speed limits at all.  Hell, why should we even pay taxes?  After all, it all goes to our gestapo of a government to pay for the future oppression of the world.  There comes a time when you have to keep people from making stupid mistakes.  Laws like this are a prime example.  Your right to do whatever you want stops when it affects others around you.

You don't want to wear a seat belt?  Fine, just don't come crying to me when you end up like a certain deer in a series of pictures thats been floating around the internet lately. (I don't link to them on here, but they're not hard to find via google.)  Just remember, when you nail someone, your body has a damn good chance of becoming a living missile that could easily fataly injure someone in another vehicle.