[tofu]

I mean, what exactly does the concept of a "wave" as expressed in the game, simulate?  

If you were planning to attack an enemy, would you launch your bombers three at a time, or would you have them all jump in at the exact same moment?  In the real world, this is called a rollback.  People who have played the game _harpoon_ know what I mean.  Sure, you can have flights of three jump in on opposite sides of the target to spread the defenders out, but you wouldn't intentionally put a delay between the flights.  That's just setting yourself up for failure by making the defenders job easier.

I actually do know why waves are in the game.  They space the action in missions out over a longer period of time, so that missions aren't overwith too quickly.  Also, they allow you the player to do more.  You can take on several waves one by one, but if they all jumped in at once you'd have to pick one and depend on your wingmates to take the rest.

Nonetheless, to me they just smack of artificiality.  I guess if you wanted a "realistic" mission, as in a mission that is realistic within the freespace universe, you'd have a mission where you fly patrol for like 30 minutes with nothing happening, and then a bunch of enemy jump in and you have to defend the ship all by yourself for a few minutes, and eventually friendly reinforcements arrive.  I guess that's probably not all that fun though.

[Primus]

And FS2 can't handle s***loads of ships at same time in game...

[Woolie Wool]

Originally posted by tofu
I mean, what exactly does the concept of a "wave" as expressed in the game, simulate?

It simulates reinforcements. Take out the enemy fighters, and backup ones arrive.

[tofu]

"Take out the enemy fighters, and backup ones arrive."

That is correct.  But if you were a commander, and if you wanted to win, you'd send everything in at once and overwelm the enemy.

[Roanoke]

Originally posted by tofu
That is correct.  But if you were a commander, and if you wanted to win, you'd send everything in at once and overwelm the enemy.

Not neccessarily. Only if you had a massive numerical advantage.

[NGTM-1R]

Besides, it's game balance. If all the Shivan waves for a wing showed up in a mission at once, you would be well and truly screwed.

[Fergus]

and Alpha 1 isn't that good...well, usually.

[rynadrk]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
Besides, it's game balance. If all the Shivan waves for a wing showed up in a mission at once, you would be well and truly screwed.

Yeah, well, have a few missions like that where you truly spanked and you will really realize how powerful the shivans are instead of being the invincible Alpha 1.

[Moonsword]

They do a pretty damned good job of that anyway, where you've got several wings that have murdered your idiot wingmen and then are chasing you down.

[Getter Robo G]

Well consider not every group of ships has more than a patrol out at any one time (usually defensers)...

Attackers may need to jump in system so it is assumed they carry their fighters for those jumps and fighters then mico-jump in system... So maybe 3 cap ships show up and you got a bomber wing, an intercept wing, and a genral fighter wing to deal with as the other ships start launching MORE fighters (3 wings at once) every min until their hangars are empty.. what's so unrealistic about that, although the delay would be a lot shorter... That's just game engine and play balance, it's a game first of all...

Not every mission is a BOE where the player's fleet is assembled to take on the enemy fleet known to be massed at location X... ;D

[tofu]

It's unrealistic for the reasons I stated - it gives the defenders the opportunity to concentrate their full strength on a fraction of your strength.  If you were in command of a british carrier task force during the Falklands war, and your mission was to attack the argentine carrier Veinticinco De Mayo, you would not send three harriers, then wait a while and send three more.  To quote Martha Stewart, that would be a bad thing.

This has nothing to do with BOE, it's just a fact of life guys.  Offensive waves make zero sense.  Not only do they not work, they are counter productive.  For the defense, I can see launching how many ever fighters you can (maybe three or four is all you can launch at once) and having them immediately jump into the action.  That's about the best you can do in that situation.  But if you're attacking and you do that, you're fired.

Yes, I know it's about game balance.  Yes I know the game would be boring if it didn't work that way.  Yes I know the game would be slower.  I know that.  I said all that in my first post.  If you'd like to repeat those facts again though, go ahead.  I just wanted to bring something up that maybe you hadn't thought about.  When you're defending something and a wave of three bombers jumps in, and then after you kill them three more jump in, that's pretty ridiculous.

[Jal-18]

And ultimately, unchangable.  I think the problem is people don't get your point.  If you're saying that Freespace is unrealistic, well no duh.  The physics problems alone are enough to write books on the subject.   If you're saying the designers should make more BoE missions, the game code prevents it. (And you just said yourself you don't want BoE missions...?)

Basically: what's your point?

[Solatar]

Freespace ISN'T realistic...it isn't intended to be...it's a frikkin' game..

We all know this, lol.

EDIT: Not bashing you really, I've tried to make more realistic missions for fs2 before, but I can't really do too much beyond small skirmishes, which are over too quickly.

[hobnob1978]

The last Mission in FS2... on hard is a B***

THAT shows how powerful the Shivans are.

You have the best ships and guns available to you, but you can still loose almost every ship you're trying to defend.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

OK in all actuality the waves mnake perfect tactical sense.  bear with me.

1st you have the attack.  call this goal "A".

2nd you have reaction force as defenders, call these guys Goal B.  they are important because it would not do to be caught with ALL of your fighters engaged elsewhere.  They are on patrol around the ship.

3rd you have back up alert force.  these are the guys who remain on ship and stand by in alert status.  They are Goal C.

4th you have reserves,  They are goal D.  They are who you send in when a certain unit isn't getting the job done as a reinforcing unit.

This is set up for specific reasons, that throughout history, have been proven sound.  Goal d, is a mobile reserve force that can be placed into any situation to plug a  hole in the offensive should the defenders create one.  you are looking at this from a tactical standpoint, and not from a strategic one.  Defenders are unpredicatable, so you keep a mobile reserve to counter that.  Should they be sent in, and you don't commit all of them either, at least not at once, but should they be depleted, then Goal C, in the alert units is sent out to replenish them.  They do have another role besides being a simple reinforcing unit for the attack.  

Now what if the object of your attack, which is actually called the thrust here, is a feint?  what if it is bait to draw your fighters out?  In your situation you have committed all of them, and have left nothing behind toi defend your own main body when the Attack comes.  and if you fall for the bait and go in force, your main body will be decimated.  So, you keep Goal B.  Should it be a ruse, Goal D is also on hand to plug any holes in the defense.  Once all of Goal D is committed to battle, you would launch Goal B as a replenishment unit.  These are usually 3rd rate pilots and are a last ditch effort in either attack or defend.

I hope this makes sense without sounding rude.  and welcome to HLPBB.  At the top of this page, directly under the Logo, you will see FSDOC (WIKI).  I would recommend this to anyone who is new.  Reading this is a wealth of FS information, and will probably keep you from asking questions that some of our members have grown tired of answering

[Flaser]

This should make it to the FS Doc IMHO as a arguement and counter argument towards waves - finals prevent me from doing so.

[radaga]

Think of the defenders ressourcefulness.

If you launch your full array of bombers on a big target everytime, it would be easy to set up decoys, and even decoys hard-wired to explode generating massive waves of fighter-killer energy.

By deploying them in wings, you minimize the risk of massive loss of your fleet by a single screwed over maneuver.

just 2 cents from a novice

[IceFire]

As a mission designer, I can tell you that the waves function in mission design is to make things more interesting to the player.  Essentially what happens is you define a wing and then you define how many times it can be killed.

So Virgo wing is a 4 ship wing of SF Mara fighters.  Once the first four are destroyed (you can even set this to first 3 destroyed) then you have a delay timer (0 to whatever) and the second wing arrives.

Its game balance.  It may also be argued that the Shivans (or any other enemy) is fighting on several fronts at the same time and shifting resources back and forth to counter and reinforce the lines.  If a mission designer is smart and they want to create the feeling that there is of fighters around you keep warping in new ships before the old ones are destroyed.

Plus, game balance usually has it so you have say 2 or 3 wings at your disposal the entire mission while the enemy has 8 or 10 in total waves.

Realism isn't really the issue.  We're fighting aliens that blow up stars after all.  Game balance, fun factor, emotional impact, and objective based design is what is the factor.

[tofu]

ShadowWolf_IH, you make some good points, but I think the bottom line is what IceFire said:  "the waves function in mission design is to make things more interesting to the player. "

I guess I just wanted to get this topic off my chest, so I appreciate the feedback.  Here's one last point to consider.  Have you ever played a strategy game?  I'll use Starcraft as an example.  Do you build 3 zerg and send them to the enemy base?  No.  Because the enemy will just kill them without taking any damage.  So, the net result of your wave of zerg is exactly zero.  You can do that over and over again if you want.  Zero times X waves is still zero.  If you want to win, you send a force that has a chance of winning.  That, essentially, is my point.  A wave of three or four bombers is not planning to win.  It's asking to have those bombers destroyed.  It's more fun in the game but it's not realistic from a tactics standpoint.

Hey btw, the derek smart thread is locked, but I just searched the forums and read his posts and there's something I'd like to say, so I hope it's ok if I say it here.  I can't believe he actually wrote, "I am an alpha male."  That made me laugh so hard I spit mountain dew on my keyboard. He's the exact opposite of an alpha male.  He has major issues with insecurity.  He was an orphan, adopted by a wealthy white woman who only wanted to appear to her friends to be compassionate by taking in a minority kid.  When that phase of her life past, she discarded him.  He couldn't get into a college, let alone complete a PhD, so he bought one on the internet.  His first game was a reasonable effort, and if I were him I would be proud of it, but it was full of bugs and it was basically a commercial failure.  Instead of accepting that, but still being proud of the work he did, he built up this fantasy world where he is constantly persecuted.

If you read the threads, you'll see that no one here called him any names or was rude to him.  People just had a different opinion.  They respectfully stated that they would not like him to make FS3.  He went off on them!  That's the pattern with Derek.  His outbursts are a defense mechanism that he's developed to avoid facing the truth.  He's not an alpha male.  He's an insecure little man, and I feel nothing but pity for him.

[Flipside]

Theres also a question of logistics, ships only come with a certain amount of armament and armour, which gets depleted in Battle. The idea of the 'Wave' is to allow for a continuing assault on a target, not giving it a chance to repair or flee, whilst still being able to maintain your own attack flight and keep them stocked, by rotating those waves.

It's like using a Maxim instead of a Beam Cannon, the Machine gun will just keep putting on pressure, a Beam Cannon can do a lot more damage, but if it doesn't work the first time, itleaves the enemy time to react while you recharge and are helpless.