[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Goober5000
You just effectively cut yourself off from any sort of evidence there.  Christian websites are the ones most likely to keep figures on Christians being persecuted; just like Jewish or Muslim websites would be the ones most likely to keep figures on Jews or Muslims being persecuted.

Actually, I'm surprised: http://www.cnn.com/US/9707/22/china.state.dept/

[Setekh]

Well, there ya go. Hardly think it represents the whole picture, though - if anything, there would be more than what we see.

[vyper]

The great irony is the majority of persecution is between differing religions, or sects of religions.

The rest of us just take the piss, not hurt you really.

[Gank]

China persecutes everyone, and its not persecuting themn for spreading christs message as such, its persecuting them along with anyone who practises any religion, it does the same to Buddhists in tibet and Muslims in one of its provinces. As for cutting myself off from evidence, that would imply that there is none. If this century has seen the largest number of martyrs, surely theres some sort of figures by someone out there, ICRC, Amnesty etc. There are people other than the church who document these things, and even try to stop them.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by vyper
The great irony is the majority of persecution is between differing religions, or sects of religions.

The rest of us just take the piss, not hurt you really.

Actually, athiest regimes are responsible for the vast majority of persecutions.  Rome.  Nazi Germany.  China.  The U.S.S.R.  Etc.  Religious regimes pale by comparison.

Originally posted by Gank
China persecutes everyone, and its not persecuting themn for spreading christs message as such, its persecuting them along with anyone who practises any religion, it does the same to Buddhists in tibet and Muslims in one of its provinces.

Are you changing the argument now? The argument was whether or not persecution exists, not why it happens.

As for cutting myself off from evidence, that would imply that there is none. If this century has seen the largest number of martyrs, surely theres some sort of figures by someone out there, ICRC, Amnesty etc. There are people other than the church who document these things, and even try to stop them.

Not really.  Who, besides members of a certain religion, is going to be interested in people persecuting members of that religion?  Nobody, for all intents and purposes.  Just look at the Holocaust for evidence.  When it was happening, the world turned a blind eye to it.

[01010]

I was under the impression that Romans had their own religion, hardly aetheist, and as for Germans, if that is a reference to the Holocaust, I'm fairly sure that the ideal aryan was blonde haired, blue eyed and a Christian, Nazis were certainly not aetheist. The USSR I believe was an orthodox religion but I'm not really too wise on the facts so I'll let that one slide.

Also, when did the world turn a blind eye to the Holocaust? I was  always under the impression that nobody outside of allied secret services had any idea as to what was going on.

[Ghostavo]

Originally posted by Goober5000
Actually, athiest regimes are responsible for the vast majority of persecutions.  Rome.  Germany.  China.  The U.S.S.R.  Etc.

When were Italy and Germany atheist regimes?

EDIT:
Actually, thinking about it, what "atheist regimes" existed besides China and USSR?

[vyper]

[q]Actually, athiest regimes are responsible for the vast majority of persecutions. Rome. Germany. China. The U.S.S.R. Etc. Religious regimes pale by comparison.[/q]

I was meaning in terms of individuals. However, if you want to be picky, who starts crusades and jihads?

[Goober5000]

I edited my post to say Nazi Germany.  While it professed to be Christian, it was anything but.  And the Nazis tried to get rid of all kinds of people.

Rome's official religion eventually became "worship the emperor".  Hardly a religion to be taken seriously.

@vyper: I'm not minimizing the effects of crusades and jihads by any means.  But athiest governments killed (and continue to kill) many, many more people.

[Ghostavo]

Rome was an atheist regime? Greco-roman mythology? Hello?

Nazi Germany was Christian, period. It can even go against what it professed but it was still Christian. By the same logic you use, I could say all the countries that fought against muslins in the crusades, in the reconquista, etc, were not christian.

[Gank]

Originally posted by Goober5000
Actually, athiest regimes are responsible for the vast majority of persecutions.  Rome.  Nazi Germany.  China.  The U.S.S.R.  Etc.  Religious regimes pale by comparison.

Rome was a religious regime, ever heard of Jupiter, Saturn, etc etc Nazi Germany wasnt atheist, the vast majority of its population was protestant, Russia didnt really persecute people per say, more discriminated against mildly. And if you look at the whole of history, its always been religious groups persecuting others, there were no atheist regimes till the last century

Originally posted by Goober5000
Are you changing the argument now? The argument was whether or not persecution exists, not why it happens.

No, I'm just pointing out that christianity isnt alone in getting persecuted in China. And the arguement was actually about the USSR.

Originally posted by Goober5000
Not really.  Who, besides members of a certain religion, is going to be interested in people persecuting members of that religion?  Nobody, for all intents and purposes.  Just look at the Holocaust for evidence.  When it was happening, the world turned a blind eye to it.

Eh, plenty of people, human rights groups etc etc, i've already found some stuff from non-religious sites with figures etc, although nothing in the magnitude you seem to be insinuating.

[Gank]

Originally posted by 01010
Also, when did the world turn a blind eye to the Holocaust? I was  always under the impression that nobody outside of allied secret services had any idea as to what was going on.

The persecutions etc that preceded the Holocaust were widely known, the actual mass killings and such took place during ww2 and as such were less widely known.

[01010]

That's pretty much how I understood it. Personally I take holocaust as the murders of the jews, gypsies, blacks, gays etc... and not so much the persecution.

Actually, this is something else that gets my goat, whilst the holocaust was terrible for the jews and I'll never deny that, I get frustrated that they act as the only victim, last time I checked the facts 16 million civillians were murdered by the Nazis and only 6 million were jews.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Gank
Rome was a religious regime, ever heard of Jupiter, Saturn, etc etc Nazi Germany wasnt atheist, the vast majority of its population was protestant, Russia didnt really persecute people per say, more discriminated against mildly.

As I said, Rome eventually became "worship the emperor", but I concede that's not the best example.

When I say "regime", that's exactly what I mean - the government, not the people.  The governments of the U.S.S.R., China, and North Korea were/are officially athiestic, and yet they murdered millions of people.

And if you look at the whole of history, its always been religious groups persecuting others, there were no atheist regimes till the last century.

That's probably true, at least "officially"; perhaps not unofficially.  But the 20th century more than made up for it.

[Stryke 9]

OMG STOP PERSECUTING GOOBER!!1!11

[Sandwich]

[Ghostavo]

Originally posted by Goober5000
As I said, Rome eventually became "worship the emperor", but I concede that's not the best example.

When I say "regime", that's exactly what I mean - the government, not the people.  The governments of the U.S.S.R., China, and North Korea were/are officially athiestic, and yet they murdered millions of people.That's probably true, at least "officially"; perhaps not unofficially.  But the 20th century more than made up for it.

Funny thing is if I was to say the same thing in reverse, I'd be accused of flamming or discriminating other people, funny isn't it?

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Originally posted by Goober5000
Actually, athiest regimes are responsible for the vast majority of persecutions.  Nazi Germany.  China.  The U.S.S.R.  

strawman.

they persecuted not because of religion but because they were repressive regimes.

[Goober5000]

@Ghostavo: I'm not sure what you mean.  Try saying it in reverse, and then I'll clarify my own post with regards to it.

@Crazy_Ivan80: It's not a strawman argument at all.  A repressive regime is going to persecute and stamp out any resistance.  Doesn't matter if it's religious or not.

[Flipside]

Also, isn't a repressive regime defined by it's repression? So if it didn't do it to people, it wouldn't be oppressive

Perseuction of all types goes on, as I said before, I think it's in Nigeria where Muslim and Christian groups are fighting. I suppose, in the strictest definition, those who die on both sides are Martyrs.

It's a stupid, senseless fight, and they are pointless Martyrs, but they do exist. It's not so much 'regime oppression' as 'regime ignorance', either deliberate, or through lack of policing.