[Solatar]

I was having a discussion with a few friends of mine, and the subject of abortion came up. To the religious part:

Does anybody know the Roman Catholic Church's views on abortion? I know it's "ok" if the mother's life is in danger, but i can't remember about rape/incest.

Feel free to discuss afterwards...in a dignified manner.

[Setekh]

Yeah, I'm not entirely familiar with the Vatican's stance on abortion. IMHO it's difficult, nigh on impossible, to make rules for this sort of thing given the terribly fallen position that the world in general is in at the moment - case-by-case would be far more appropriate, though in general it is a terrible thing to take away a life under any circumstance.

[Ghostavo]

Not sure if this helps, but what the hell:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19741118_declaration-abortion_en.html

[icespeed]

we did this in philosophy last year.
1) it is immoral to kill an innocent human being.
2) an unborn baby is an innocent human being.
3) abortion is therefore immoral.

basically that's the main argument pro-life; if you're pro-choice you'd have to find something logically wrong with 1) and/or 2).

personally, i think providing abortion services is like providing euthanasia services. it may be justified in certain situations.

[InfernoGod]

But, pro-life or pro-choice, it's still wrong to tell people that they can't do something that should be solely their choice. Despite the fact that it is killing a human being, it's not up to us to tell the mother what she can and can't do.

[icespeed]

no one's actually said anything about telling people what they can't do.

but... are you saying that despite the fact that it's killing a human being, we should let a mother go ahead and kill her child?

i think it was mother teresa who said, don't abort, give me the children you don't want and _i'll_ look after them.

[WeatherOp]

Originally posted by InfernoGod
But, pro-life or pro-choice, it's still wrong to tell people that they can't do something that should be solely their choice. Despite the fact that it is killing a human being, it's not up to us to tell the mother what she can and can't do.

But, by saying that you would say it's wrong to tell murderers that it's wrong to kill other people since it is their choice. It isn't made right, just because that baby can't tell you that killing it is wrong. Like you can tell me that murder is wrong.

[Nuke]

its more or less a mater of opinion. the church tends to think that the soul is created at conception and is what makes us human and thus would make abortion imoral. dont know if that was in the bible or if they just pulled it out of their ass. thou shalt not kill is the obvious thing they use to justify the abolition of abortion. its a mater of when is an embrio considered a life.

then you have those who do not believe in the soul and believe its che conciousness that makes a small mass of cells a human life. therefore if you abort before the fetus developes enough brain density to support conciousness then you are not actually destroying a human life because the part that makes it human has not developed yet.

abortion is what seems to me to be an obsolete way of handeling the problem. in the event of rape the morning after pill is the normal treatment and i believe is part of the 'rape kit'.

if the mother's life is in danger is the hard one. i think the best bet is to weigh the odds. the goal in this scenario is to save both child and mother, if that cannot be done then save the one that has the best chance survival. if the baby's chance of survival is 10% and the mother's is 60% the obvious move is to save the mother. i believe its a medical decision and not a moral one.

[Bobboau]

I'm of the oppionion that it's all just emotional and trying to define 'human life' is about as aplicable as trying to quantify 'good art'

[Ford Prefect]

It's all absurd. Let's all don clown suits and run around screaming, "Zuchini carousel of hot psychadelic gang sex blasphemy," to celebrate the void of meaninglessness that is the cosmos into which we gaze.

[Liberator]

Ford, you ever wonder why there are so few real Nihilists?  It's cause nobody likes a party pooper.  Which is, BTW, why I am alone.  I am the proverbial bucket of cold water.

[WMCoolmon]

Lib, less self-pity would also help in that department. Nobody wants to hear you put yourself down, because if they care about you, that's not going to help their mood at all.

At any rate. Abortion. I haven't really formed an opinion because there doesn't seem to be any right or wrong side (like most controversial issues, I suppose, but this seems even more shades of grey).

On the one hand, it's killing something which could be human life. It's not there yet, but there definitely seems like there's something different about a fertilized human egg than an egg or sperm. If only in the abstract.

On the other hand, the mother is risking her life to give birth to the kid. If they decide to raise the kid it'll cost them lots of time and money. And from a purely biological standpoint, it's not all that different from using a condom or the pill.

In the end, the question seems to really be how many rights do children have, and at what ages do they gain them? This is something that's going to come up soon with the advent of genetic engineering and such. (Gattaca, IMHO, hit a possible future spot-on.) I suppose I'm somewhere in the pro-life side of pro-choice.

[Nuke]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
It's all absurd. Let's all don clown suits and run around screaming, "Zuchini carousel of hot psychadelic gang sex blasphemy," to celebrate the void of meaninglessness that is the cosmos into which we gaze.

Originally posted by Liberator
Ford, you ever wonder why there are so few real Nihilists?  It's cause nobody likes a party pooper.  Which is, BTW, why I am alone.  I am the proverbial bucket of cold water.

my cult grows
nihilism rules!

[Liberator]

I am not a nihilist.  I'm what the gambling industry calls a Cooler.

[Goober5000]

The amusing thing (if anything about abortion can be amusing) is that it's an evolutionary dead-end.  Nature cannot sustain a species that insists on killing its own young.

The even more amusing thing is that there are an estimated fewer 40 million potential Democratic voters living today than there would be if abortion hadn't been legalized.   One possible explanation for the Republican party's recent successes.

[Nuke]

Originally posted by Liberator
I am not a nihilist.  I'm what the gambling industry calls a Cooler.

call yourself what you will. just dont loose yourself in a sea of words. so many names, far far too few meanings.

[Gank]

Originally posted by Goober5000
The even more amusing thing is that there are an estimated fewer 40 million potential Democratic voters living today than there would be if abortion hadn't been legalized.   One possible explanation for the Republican party's recent successes.

Politics arent hereditary

[WeatherOp]

Originally posted by Gank


Politics arent hereditary

of times they probley are,if you grow up with your parents a democrat, then you will probley be a democrat.

[Gank]

Thats still not hereditary. And not neccessarily true either.

[Unknown Target]

I think that abortion should be legal only when the baby is still dependent on it's attachment to the mother. if the baby is able to survive with out the umbillical cord (whether by forced removal or early birth), then abortionm should be illegal.

Besides, you went through about 7 months with this child, why not just have the last 2 months and just birth it?