Author Topic: Questioning the unquestionable  (Read 3699 times)

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Offline aldo_14

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Questioning the unquestionable
Well, firstly the Einsatzgruppen recorded detailed records of mass killings of jews on the battlefield in 1941-42, sending detailed records to various officials and SS officers, etc.  A commander of one of these units testified that they killed 90,000 jews alone.

Rudolf Hoss, commander of Birkenau, wrote in his memoirs (written in Polish captivity after the war; he was also tortured, which is also written in his memoirs) that an order "all Jews without exception are to be destroyed." was received in 1941, and also mentions the gas chambers.  Supporting eyewitness evidence also comes from SS guards and physicians acting at the camp.  

Interestingly, Hoss mentions that Block 11 at Auschwitz - the preserved one - was abandoned early on as a gassing venue.  The crematorium is mentioned in that article - what isn;t mentioned is that  hydrocyanic acid traces were found in there by a study (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/).  Said study compares the concentration of hydrocyanic acid in deloused blocs to the gas chambers.

With regards to the swimming pool at Auschwitz, AFAIK there isn't any evidence it was used by the inmates rather then the SS (the SS already played football on weekends in a ground behind the 2nd crematorium).  Certainly it had facilities for the guards to enjoy.

Of the aerial photos... a quick search revealed this of a burning pit (for bodies)

With regards to use of the crematoria, there is a lot of support evidence for their gassing use; a written letter (from Jan 1943,  from SS Captain Bischoff, head of the Auschwitz Central Construction Management to Berlin) makes specific use of the German for 'gas chamber' with regards to Crematoria 2.  Orders also were made for 'gas tight' door and window seals (or record), and a work order specifically (again) refers to the chamber as a 'gas chamber'.  The chambers were also unsuitable as air raid shelters - too small for the inmates, and over a kilometer from the guard huts.  (there were also already 1/2 man air raid shelters dotted around the place, some of which still stand).  Also, the glass in the window of the crematoria was protected against being broken from the inside.  

(obviously, there is testimony explicitly referring towards the use of Zyklon B from camp soldiers; Hans Stark, for example)

Furthermore, there are documents from civillian contractors referring to heating up the gas chambers - if this was a morgue as some claim, it would be a very bad thing to do.  Good, however, for speeding up the vapourisation of Zyklon B (which was chucked in as solid state).

There are also documents which refer to Auschwitz' incineration rate being boosted to 120,000 bodies a month; if this was (for example) due to a typhus epidemic, it would mean 4/5ths of the camps projected population (150,000) would have to die and be replaced each month.

EDIT; took ages to find this
EDIT2; IIRC Auschwitz was originally built as a prisoner of war, then concentration/forced labour and finally execution camp; it wasn't originally designed for what it's famous for, hence why it's singled out as evidence 'against' because of incongrous design.
EDIT3; shifted to bottom; there's also other stuff about specific addition of gas proof seals on the crematoria and a paper which positively identified the gas holes there, but I couldn't be bothered typing the specifics.
EDIT4; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witold_Pilecki Witold Pilecki, volunteered to go to Auschwitz to organise resistance, escaped to try and convice the Allies to send help in person.  Claimed "During the first 3 years, at Auschwitz there perished 2 million people; in the next 2 years—3 million".
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 06:39:16 pm by 181 »

 
Questioning the unquestionable
No it doesn't, but it's an example that could follow. Since there was no "major" evidence stated in the article of the holocaust (they obviously are ignorant people) then my idea was that since there was no "major" evidence of D-Day's success, then we don't know if the Allied attack involved cuddly Pandas or Grizzly Bears. Maybe both. RIchard Simons also made a guest appearance.

 

Offline Dark_4ce

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Questioning the unquestionable
I think thats his point Flip. :)
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Questioning the unquestionable
What he said.

Him.

Down there.

I dont get how my post wound up over his.

V    V    V    V

 

Offline Gank

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Questioning the unquestionable
Its pretty obvious none of you have even read the ****ing article.

BD explain exactly how that picture disproves what the guy is saying, you might want to actually read what he is saying first. it actually proves what hes saying depending on whether not thats actually a picture from auschwitz or not.

Dark_4ace, you say you know this guy, ask him how many people he seen gassed, where and when. Btw, escaped twice, thats some achievement, mind sharing his name? bound to be some way to add some authenticity to what you're saying seeing as only 5-600 prisioners ever escaped and very few of them would have survived recapture, probably hes quite well known.

Corsair, read the article please.

 

Offline Gank

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Questioning the unquestionable
good ****ing man Aldo, somebody actually read it before they started talking ****e.

  

Offline Flipside

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Questioning the unquestionable
Indeed, as I said before, I'm not saying it didn't happen, what I'm saying is that accepting anything without question is unhealthy ;)

Good evidence there Aldo, I've read the contents of Hoess's diary as well, it is very incriminating. My own personal feeling is that it DID happen and it was as terrible as said, if not more so. But it's still an interesting article, and it does raise a few questions on our knowledge of how Auschwitz worked etc if nothing else.

 

Offline Dark_4ce

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Questioning the unquestionable
Quote
Originally posted by Gank

Dark_4ace, you say you know this guy, ask him how many people he seen gassed, where and when. Btw, escaped twice, thats some achievement, mind sharing his name? bound to be some way to add some authenticity to what you're saying seeing as only 5-600 prisioners ever escaped and very few of them would have survived recapture, probably hes quite well known.



Well... His name is Meyer Frank. Want his security number he has tattooed on his arm too? no, he hasn't seen any gassings, because he wasn't in the gas chamber to witness it. Why? HE ESCAPED. And yes. twice. Actually 3 times, if you count an early escape from the march of death, when they took him out of the ghetto. During witch he saw quite a few very healthy people shot in the head for no apparent reason. As well as two young children being killed infront of their mother, before she got shot as well.  

And yes, it was quite an achievement. And the only reason he survived was that after he was captured again, he was tattooed. But they didn't know he had escaped before. He managed to escape and hide in a farm yeard by some friendly farmers who hid him in the hay loft.

Ever hear of this one, "just because you can't see it, doesent mean it doesent exist?"

Look. I'm not looking for an argument here. I just know for a fact that it exists. Other people of course have a right to their own oppinions. This just happens to be a touchy subject for me.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 06:37:06 pm by 357 »
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Questioning the unquestionable
Has anyone ever see Night and Fog (Nuit et Brouillard)?  It contains footage taken by the nazi's... I believe noone who has seen it could possibly quibble over numbers, whether it actually happened, etc. It was horrific, beyond description.  The mind doesn't want to comprehend what the eyes are seeing.

 

Offline Gank

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Questioning the unquestionable
Aye well seeing how the article was disputing the claims of mass gassings then your friends dads testimonys are of very little use to us. This is why I was pissed at you, because you didnt read the article and started shooting off about denying anybody died, which nobody has actually claimed. You seem to think that by questioning any detail of the holocaust means denying anything ever happened, hence the thread title questioning the unquestionable.

 

Offline Dark_4ce

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Questioning the unquestionable
Quote
Originally posted by Gank
Aye well seeing how the article was disputing the claims of mass gassings then your friends dads testimonys are of very little use to us. This is why I was pissed at you, because you didnt read the article and started shooting off about denying anybody died, which nobody has actually claimed. You seem to think that by questioning any detail of the holocaust means denying anything ever happened, hence the thread title questioning the unquestionable.


Ok. Look. I didn't mean to piss you off or anything. I read the article. I just don't happen to agree with the over all tone of it. Yes, it disputes facts, but theres always a bigger picture. I just don't agree with what that article was drawing.

And Gank, in no way do I consider you "pro-nazi" or anything of the sort. Hell no! If I came off showing that I did, I apologize. You said nothing to make me think anything ill of you. :yes:

Like I said, I just don't agree with the article.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 06:52:59 pm by 357 »
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Offline vyper

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Questioning the unquestionable
The mind over here comprehends all too well - and when you begin to see how the world truly works you stop being shocked.

What happened was horrific, there's no debate on that. But it's just another chapter in a history book we have managed to soak in blood.  It's just another slaughter.

Think about that "just another".
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline Flipside

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Questioning the unquestionable
I have no proof, but I severely doubt there has been a single day in human history where people haven't been murdered for being 'Not like us'.

Edit :

It's just a step to the left...
And then a jump to the right...
Let's do the Timewarp Aggaaaaain!

 

Offline Dark_4ce

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Questioning the unquestionable
Quote
Originally posted by Flipside
I have no proof, but I severely doubt there has been a single day in human history where people haven't been murdered for being 'Not like us'.


Good point. :yes:

Though I half remember hearing in history class that one of the popes once observed an entire day of peace. I dont remember which one, or even if it was the pope. I just remember hearing something of the sort.
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Offline vyper

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Questioning the unquestionable
Sadly that doesn't cover all of humanity.
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline Corsair

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Questioning the unquestionable
Well said, Ice.
Wash: This landing's gonna get pretty interesting.
Mal: Define "interesting".
Wash: *shrug* "Oh God, oh God, we're all gonna die"?
Mal: This is the captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and then... explode.

 

Offline IceFire

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Questioning the unquestionable
Quote
Originally posted by Gank
good ****ing man Aldo, somebody actually read it before they started talking ****e.

I read the article...most of the way down anyways.  Still I got bored and annoyed.  Simply, they are disputing the numbers and the ways of killing.  Which is fine enough except that it reads like one of the holocaust deniers having a field day in what reads like a convincing essay but which is lacking substantively.

And the agenda is quite clear at the beginning...which is why I read it the way I did and why I don't agree with what they are trying to say.  Again, its a wolf in sheeps clothing.  It reads like an academic article but its not and it lacks the critical analysis.  Infact, its critical analysis of everyone else but without anything else to say.

Sorry, not convinced.

Millions died in this fashion, most of them Jewish, because of their genetic background and nothing more.  Similarly, although not in the same fashion, thousands or millions of Russians were also killed for the same reason.  Nazi germany needed "living space" for the German race and thats the kind of war they were fighting in the east...a war of extermination.  War in the west was very different...the British in particular were even considered possible allies and well regarded as potent foes but Hitler had little interest in actually invading Britain despite the motions he went through during the Battle of Britain (and Operation Sea Lion which never materialized).  

If you study the history of Germany and Europe in a more complete fashion you get to see the pattern and it, in broad strokes by itself, supports the events of the holocaust.  The details are perhaps arguable but the denial that it happened and the reasons for it happening are well documented and historically factual.  So you'll excuse me when I doubt the credibility of someone who says as has been said in this article.  Its not as extreme or blatant as I've heard...but its getting there.
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Offline vyper

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Questioning the unquestionable
With all due respect to IceFire, he didn't say anything spectacular or earth moving. In fact it was nothing more than the traditional: holocaust was terrible, stop questioning to what degree it was such.
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline vyper

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Questioning the unquestionable
How exactly does it show an agenda? It states a hypothesis, or more a position - and then sets out to show proof that it is a tenable position.

edit: friggin time warp
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 07:09:21 pm by 798 »
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline ShadowWolf_IH

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Questioning the unquestionable
i often find it amusing how an article can change a person's mind so completely that it makes them cry about how people shouldn't believe everything that they read.  that is most amusing.
You can't take the sky from me.  Can't take that from me.

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