Author Topic: Pre-FS1 tech (I've been thinking)  (Read 5178 times)

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Offline Kitsune

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Pre-FS1 tech (I've been thinking)
This is on topic believe it or not.

Pre-FS1 weaponry would cover today's weapons too.
Wired news has an article on a weapon that fires One MILLION rounds per minute.
It's still in development obviously, but to even say you can do it...
 http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,46570,00.html

Tale a look for yourself and see.  Wow.

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Offline Eishtmo

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Pre-FS1 tech (I've been thinking)
 
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14:
1/ How would the pirates / smugglers be able to communicate?  I doubt any criminal enterprise finance the development of a translator.

I'm sure they found a way.  Besides, there must have been some basis for the original development of the translators, and this could very well be it.  Also, when I say 'official' contact, we're talking the one where the GTA and PVE admit they've had contact.  Imagine what the intellegence groups would hold back. . .

 
Quote

2/  Would there even be any pirates in Vasudan systems?  Because the initial colonisation would be by government/GTA ships, any initial contact would surely be by either the colonisation ships, or the initial colonists.  Especially if the GTA sent in scout fighters / ships first.

Not historically.  Goverment sponsered colonization is rarely first contact.  Usually people looking to make money make first contact, sometimes long before the goverment even attempts such a feat.


 
Quote

3/ first contact would probably be either in a 'new' system, or as Vasudans entered a jumpnode.  New systems are highly unlikely to be pirated, as there would be relatively little business there.  Also, initial concentrations of GTA forces would be high, to secure the system.  Jumpnodes would obviously be protected.

That's only true if the sensors on a GTA/PVE ship were looking for other life.  Likely, they wouldn't, and so they could pass right by some planets without even looking.  Space is a big place.  Jumpnodes would only be protected if one side knew they were there in the first place.

 
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4/Actual contact between Vasudans and terran renegades would be highly unlikely, as the Vasudans are suppossedly very caste conscious.  They would probably frown on criminal groups.

There's no proof of a caste system, and even in such a system there are always crimials of some sort.  "Probably frown on crimial groups?"  Understatement of the year, and a similar view is likely held by the GTA.

 
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Another thing is that first contact would be a truly earth-shattering (maybe not the right word   )experience.... it would be almost impossible for someone to kep it quiet, even if they wanted to.

To quote a favorite comic of mine:  "There is no conspiracy, there doesn't need to be."  They wouldn't need to force people to keep quite, many would willingly do it (because they're making money on it, imagine the monopoly!), and many more would simply be ignored.  That's the way the world works sometimes.

BTW, you keep missing a letter or two, usually 's's and 't's.

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Offline Nico

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Pre-FS1 tech (I've been thinking)
i'll support ald on that point. I just doubt there was prates at all then. Imagine, it was a time of exploration and colonisation, etc. I doubt that civilians ahd ships then. Even in FS2 we have no clue that civilians have access to ships. It's very likely that then, space craft were not that common, and really expensive things that only a huge government could afford to have.
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Eishtmo

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Pre-FS1 tech (I've been thinking)
 
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506:
i'll support ald on that point. I just doubt there was prates at all then. Imagine, it was a time of exploration and colonisation, etc. I doubt that civilians ahd ships then. Even in FS2 we have no clue that civilians have access to ships. It's very likely that then, space craft were not that common, and really expensive things that only a huge government could afford to have.

How did the GTA survive without trade?  Military transports alone?  I doubt it.  In the beginning, yes, the goverment would control access to the node, but once a permeant colony is set up in other systems, the civilian transit had to come.  Soon after, groups looking for a place to start anew would begin branching out.  It's actually proven to be true by FS itself.  Refer to the command briefing regarding the Flail cannon:  "A group of Terran scientists has returned from a previously unexplored system known as Laramis."  As a general rule, scientists usually don't like being military lackies, and the system was previously unexplored.  This could, of course, be taken many ways, but it seems to indicate that this was a civilian enterprise, not a goverment one (though the rest of the research for the weapon came from Sol).

And since when did pirates need inter-system drives to operate.  We can reasonably assume that there is intra-system civilian traffic, and with modification, a few of those ships could be converted to combat, pirate style.

Freespace isn't the ideal world you two seem to think it is.  Piracy, crime, drugs, all the bad things we have in our socity now will likely be in the socities of the future.  FS is no exception.

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Offline Nico

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Pre-FS1 tech (I've been thinking)
 
Quote
Originally posted by Eishtmo:
How did the GTA survive without trade?  Military transports alone?  I doubt it.  In the beginning, yes, the goverment would control access to the node, but once a permeant colony is set up in other systems, the civilian transit had to come.  Soon after, groups looking for a place to start anew would begin branching out.  It's actually proven to be true by FS itself.  Refer to the command briefing regarding the Flail cannon:  "A group of Terran scientists has returned from a previously unexplored system known as Laramis."  As a general rule, scientists usually don't like being military lackies, and the system was previously unexplored.  This could, of course, be taken many ways, but it seems to indicate that this was a civilian enterprise, not a goverment one (though the rest of the research for the weapon came from Sol).

And since when did pirates need inter-system drives to operate.  We can reasonably assume that there is intra-system civilian traffic, and with modification, a few of those ships could be converted to combat, pirate style.

Freespace isn't the ideal world you two seem to think it is.  Piracy, crime, drugs, all the bad things we have in our socity now will likely be in the socities of the future.  FS is no exception.


How do you know how I think the FS world is?
I'm merely sure scientist missions are under military contracts. You think the GTA (built around a military system), will let civilians hit the road, discovers new techs on lots of worlds, make first contacts if there's possiblities of it, let the outcome of such an event in civilian hands and all? I don't think so. The exploration of new territories is a military action, not a pretty journey into the country.
Who talked about intersystem jumps? not me. I asked how pirates could have ships at all? Pirates don't have planes nowadays, for what I know. How could they afford to buy a space ship? A ship must cost the pelt of the a$$, we're not in Privateer. And btw, how can you assume intra systems are not needed? I'm sure you noticed like me how FS ships are slow. I don't think pirates would be willing to wait for 8 months their cargoes to arrive in their hidden outpost in an asteroid field (assuming they can afford the incredible cost to build one).
And btw I doubt civilians colonies are left on their own, w/o any militaries. Just an exemple: it's said every colonized system has an arcadia. Well the arcadia always comes along with a full complement of fighters, and for what I noticed, they're always next to a node. So the GTA doesn't look at all nodes, but they look at the strategic ones. If pirates won't use these ones, to whom will they sell the stolen stuff? I think space traffic and all that stuff is really restricted, for civilians. Hospital ships, mining ships, science ships. Thats' all I think the GTA wouuld allow, plus they're ships that could belong to very rich companies, the only civilians who could afford a thing like a spaceship. Shall I remind you the cost of an aircraft carrier nowadays? a simple fenris is bigger, and probably much more advanced tech wise., and I assume a ship like the pre FS1 Angel is also way more advanced than a 21th century recon plane.

edit: loads of typos  

[This message has been edited by venom2506 (edited 10-05-2001).]
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Eishtmo

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Pre-FS1 tech (I've been thinking)
The Galactic Terran Alliance is just that, an Alliance.  It's kind of like NATO, with a central command structure for the fleet.  This system was carried over when the GTVA formed, if you'll notice.  They may be a military orginization, but when it comes to internal matters of the individual member nations, I doubt they had anything beyond the general protection from hostile forces (Vasudans, pirates, ect.).  In fact, the FSRB makes it relativly clear what the GTA is and what it does.  And I quote:  "It's largely a defense and research organization, and has few domestic influences, focusing it's attention on matters in outer space, and the exploration thereof."  Likely they have little or no control over inter-colony trade beyond coming to the rescue in case of disaster or attack.

Yes, its likely as a general rule, exploration would be a military action.  But that doesn't mean civilians looking for a new home wouldn't have done it on their own if they could.  Ever hear of the Mormons?  Or the exploration of the American West?

Where did I say there were no intra-system drives for pirates?  I said they didn't need inter-system drives.  It's unreasonable for intra-system drives not to be fairly common amoung civilians.  An effective pirate force could live almost totally without inter-system nodes, hijacking ships moving toward far-flung colonies.  And of course they could perchase ships, certianly not a Fenris cruiser (I'm still trying to figure out why you assumed that's the kind of ship they would buy) or even fighters.  You know what the average size of a ship is on this planet?  A bit bigger than a dingy.  Odds are, they could get their hands on ships of varying sizes, mostly small, and use them efffectivly.  Good god, they probably have several Elysium transports, you know, the ones "used by everyone, civilian and military" since space colonization began.  Nothing there says you can't make money transporting goods and materials within a system or between systems and not make one hell of profit even for a bunch of small time transport companies.  And if the GTA tried to stop that to all but contested systems, do you know what kind of holy hell would be raised?

Arcadias are big, take a while to build (especially on the frontier), and there's at least one per colonized system.  Space is big, and one Arcadia couldn't possibly keep pirates out of systems.  Most aren't at nodes (not that it would bother intra-system pirates), but located high above populated planets.  Hell, I actually don't remember a single Arcadia located right next to a node in any canon mission (of course, I haven't played in a while, feel free to correct me).

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Offline Nico

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Pre-FS1 tech (I've been thinking)
the fenris was just an exemple. But tell me how would you hijack a ship w/o fighters? i imagine the scene: "shut down yuor engines or we ram you with our elysium" hem...
As for exploring america, a horse car and an exploration ship have not the same cost, for what I know. And waht happened when the civil first met the US american natives? It turned bad. I don't think the GTVA would make such a mistake. Pluys you said it all in your quote "focusing it's attention on matters in outer space, and the exploration thereof" If the civialians do that too, the GTA is indda useless for that task after all don't you think? intra systems and inter systems are the same thing for me. Civilians won't have that more than todays civ planes have afterburners and inflight fueling. And you know whay? Coz the GTA will surely not want pirates that can go where they want. All this stuff is military, not civilian, neither are shields or I dunno what.
Don't get me wrong: I DO like the idea of pirates and so on, my first aborted campaign was about that, mainly. But I think it's not realistic.
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Eishtmo

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Pre-FS1 tech (I've been thinking)
Actually, its quite realistic, and very likely.  Space, my friend, is a very big place.

Ramming?  You do know those transports have turrets don't you?  And a smart pirate would upgrade them to fit their needs.  You need to get away from thinking that everything needs fighters, it doesn't.  With enough ships and a bad attitude, you can capture a lot of ships.  In the age of sail, most pirates didn't fire a shot, their victims just surrendered, rather than die in a hopeless cause.

You're right, horses, cars and space ships do not have the same cost, but you have to understand economics.  For most of history, the horse was one of the few modes of land transportation (other than the foot, in general) and as such, they cost a pretty penny.  In fact, if you count for inflation, a horse at the peak of that period probably cost just as much as a car.  And likely, a space ship would cost as much as a car.  Space ships are frightfully expensive now because they're made one of a kind, like the cars of old.  Mass production could slash that price by a bundle.

Yes, the GTA does explore deep space, but that doesn't mean civilians didn't do it without the GTA's approval.  Hell, I'd bet that the first people into most systems did it without GTA approval or even knowledge.

And I do remember what happened to Indians, and guess what?  That's probably one of the reasons the 14 Year War started.

Oh, and regardless of what the two terms mean to you, they have very strict definitions.  Intra-system is within a system, and inter-system is between systems.  Learn it, live it, love it.

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Pre-FS1 tech (I've been thinking)
...And to furthur Eishtmo's defense, why do you think that pretty much ALL Elysium's are armed with turrets?  Civilian craft wouldn't be armed at all if it wasn't needed (when's the last time you saw a bunch of '50-cal turrets on a 747?)
I told you that It would be done by November, well, mostly anyway...

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Offline Nico

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Pre-FS1 tech (I've been thinking)
 
Quote
Originally posted by Eishtmo:
Intra-system is within a system, and inter-system is between systems

Thanx, I know that. As for comparing ships to cars, it's ridiculous. In todays world, the equivalent of a spaceship is suremy not a car   . It's planes, large 4 reactors freighters and all that stuff. Now it's known that pirates are evrywhere over the seas and the unhabited lands, cruising the skies in stolen C10 galaxies or C5 hercules. And you can put any turret on a elysium, if it's not up to beams, it will do crap to another capship. Why turrets on a Elysium?
Coz, off course, the vasudans were all nice peoples and didn't attack any capships in the space, and asteroids are smart enough to avoid collisions.
Bah, anyway, you just tell I'm wrong, but you won't prove anything. This discussion is useless and, for me, over.

[This message has been edited by venom2506 (edited 10-06-2001).]
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline penguin

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Pre-FS1 tech (I've been thinking)
OK, this is my first post, so here goes (sorry if it's long and a p1pm for my campaign...)  I've been thinking a lot about what happens between now (ie 2001) and the start of the T-V war.

I've been working on a campaign "The First Small Steps."  It begins with the discovery of intra system subspace drives, and ends at the outbreak of the T-V war.

The set up is that all political boundaries on Earth have finally been dissolved, and everyone now recognizes the UN.  "We are entering a new period of peace and prosperity ..." (yeah right, we've heard that before   )

Although subspace is a new technology, we've been colonizing Earth's orbit, the Moon, and the Asteriod Belt for a while... the Belt is a rich source of raw materials that have been exhuasted on Earth.

The action starts off with pirate raids in the Belt, and it turns out the Belter Alliance (the pirates) are better equipped and have better ships (more raw materials, etc.)  Earth is blockaded, and the UN is forced to recognize the Belt as a separate (non) political entity (so we have the UN and the Belt at peace).

But the military research and buildup has begun, so we actually have some fighters, bombers, small cap-ships, etc.  This will be important when we meet the Vasudans...

With the advances in subspace research, we discover the jump nodes to Delta Serpentis, build inter-system drives, and begin exploration of nearby systems.  Once colonies are established, the UN and Belt Alliance form the GTA with the outer colonies.

However, 60 years previously, unknown to anyone outside the UN Intelligence Council (now GTI), a convoy of "sleeper ships" was dispatched to colonize and explore Alpha Centauri using normal-space drives.  When the reach A.C. and come online, they find they're not alone (remember, A.C. is only one jump from Vasuda)

Initial contacts are peaceful, but lack of translation makes things difficult.  After translation devices are developed, there is a non-aggression pact between the GTA and the Vasudans, but there are numerous points of friction, especially in systems like Alpha Centauri that both races are claiming.

That's all I have for now, I've got a few missions put together, and the storyline needs to be tightened up a little.

The mods are killing me    The early fighters would be nothing but converted freighers -- with no cargo bay, they're more manuverable, and they have better weapons, but they're still slow, weak and thinly armored (at least by FS1 standards).

---
 


[This message has been edited by penguin (edited 10-06-2001).]
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Offline Eishtmo

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Pre-FS1 tech (I've been thinking)
Well, today space ships and cars are different, but in the future they may not be, and likely won't be if there is some form of inter-colony trade.

And this discussion wasn't useless.  Debates like this help to finally define what the pre-FS1 world was like.  It helps campaign designers and writers come up for the reasons why the world is the way it is.  And while straining on me, it's actually been quite invigorating and fun.

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Offline Nico

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Pre-FS1 tech (I've been thinking)
 
Quote
Originally posted by Eishtmo:
Well, today space ships and cars are different, but in the future they may not be, and likely won't be if there is some form of inter-colony trade.

And this discussion wasn't useless.  Debates like this help to finally define what the pre-FS1 world was like.  It helps campaign designers and writers come up for the reasons why the world is the way it is.  And while straining on me, it's actually been quite invigorating and fun.


Lol   I didn't mean the topic was useless, but both of us willing to prove the other wrong  , and we add nothing really new. Ok, I'll put my own vision of pirates, the ones i wanted to show in my Descent campaign. This applies to all civilians btw.
It was happening in sol after the node collapsed. first, no civ had any jumpdrive of any sort, same for shields. The ships are custom thinguys usually, built on old ships put to garbage (like the angel scout), and others are designed especially for civs. In any case, they're dead inferior to any military ship. Travel though sol is done via kinds of jumpgates, big nodes maintained open thanx to a big suspacedrive (I think I'll use that in OtT) all the weapons are much like the FS1 "don'trememberthename", and are useless agaisnt shields. The pirates exists because of a big society which pay them and give them equipment.
voila  
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Eishtmo

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Pre-FS1 tech (I've been thinking)
And that works for the early FS universe.

And I believe you were looking for "ML-16 Laser."

I believe that intra-system subspace fuctions with or without inter-system nodes in the system.  There's no evidence that it can't, but no evidence that it can.  As I've developed a probably early history of the GTA (pre-GTA, actually), I decided that intra drives were invented before inter drives.  It makes the missions easier to design that way.

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