[Bobboau]

the mother wanted the child, so the feotus was going to becomes a child, killing the mother killed the child. I see no hypocracy in being pro choice and calling for a double murder charge, this is totaly seperate from the abortion debate, killing a pregnant woman is twice the evil as simply killing a woman, therefore it requiers twice the punishment, now the only question I see ariseing is did the criminal know the woman was pregnent, if he did not then it is simply a single count, but this issue should only come up after his guilt on the matter has been resolved.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

so then a man also shouldn't pay child support primus?  you can't have it both ways...the woman gets to decide to kill the child, but if she decides not to then make the man pay?  

i do not agree with your statement.

the child belongs to both parents, both are responsible for the child, and for the life (or death) of the child in this manner.  I think that if the man will not concur with the abortion then the child should at that point be lawfully his once it is born.  the woman doesn't want it, the man does, let him have it.  I'll be flamed for that one i'm sure but i don't care.

My ex killed not just one child, but two.  my twins, before she even told me that she was pregnant.  so yeah, i'm a bit of a hardline on this.  i would have taken them gladly.  so she killed my family, and expected forgiveness knowing before hand what my feelings were.

The guy who killed the lady was not killing his girlfriend and his child, he was killing someone else's family.  he had no right to decide whether the child lived or died.  still stands with me....double murder.  torture the bastard before killing him.  I am very big on horrific punishment as a deterrent.

[Bobboau]

so why were you haveing sex with someone with wich you differed so sharply?
if she knew how you felt then it stands to reason that you knew how she felt. this seems like a common trend in our culture.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

according to her, she felt the same as i did, until crunch time came i guess

[Primus]

Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
so then a man also shouldn't pay child support primus?  you can't have it both ways...the woman gets to decide to kill the child, but if she decides not to then make the man pay?  

i do not agree with your statement.

the child belongs to both parents, both are responsible for the child, and for the life (or death) of the child in this manner.  I think that if the man will not concur with the abortion then the child should at that point be lawfully his once it is born.  the woman doesn't want it, the man does, let him have it.  I'll be flamed for that one i'm sure but i don't care.

Yes. The child belongs to both parents and both are responsible for the child. That's why the father should pay support, even if he didn't want the child.  Why? Because it is his child, no matter if he didn't want it.

I'm taking a hardline on this one, as in my life, I've only seen fathers who can't or don't want to take the responsibilty of the child.

[Flipside]

In answer to your question Bobboau, yes he did, she even asked him to think of the baby. And thanks for voicing my own confused thoughts to me so well, I agree with you 110%

[ShadowWolf_IH]

so if the father has to pay child support, which i agree with, why then does a father not have any legal right in the decision when a woman decides to abort? If he doesn't want the child and she does then he has to pay, but if the woman doesn't want it and the man does, she can kill it.

why the double standard?

[Primus]

The man doesn't carry the baby. Like I said: Her body, her decision.

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Primus
The man doesn't carry the baby. Like I said: Her body, her decision.

It takes 2 decide to have a baby. It takes 2 to have a baby. It takes 2 to raise a baby (even if just in the form of child support).

I'm a woman and I would never decide on an abortion without having my husband having a say in the matter. He's as much part of it as I would be. It would be as much his child as it would be mine.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

her body?  his child.  as far as i am concerned, when the woman becomes pregnant, the child is first, and she is second.  except in the rare case.  

when a woman becomes pregnant one of two things can happen, she can either decide to be a mother, or she is nothing but an incubator.

the woman being the one who is the incubator gives her the right to Kill a man's child and the man has no recourse according to you.

let her out of paying child support, it will be a nice monetary compensation for renting her body.

a sfar as it goes though, my personal feelings on the matter are that abortion should not be used as birth control.  then are some matters where i understand, even if i do not agree with abortion.  but as a form of birth control?  never.

[Primus]

@Tiara
It takes 1 to carry the baby. And ofcourse man can have a say in the matter. But he can't make the decision. That's how I see it.

@SW
True. Abortion should not be used as birth control. But I fully support abortion.

[Acer]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear there, I meant that, in the situation where the ex-boyfriend shoots a woman who is pregnant, killing both mother and child (the baby was not his, but that is, strictly speaking, secondary) would you consider this act a double or a single case of Murder?

In order to answer your question we must first define what it is that we define as human life. How far into the pregnancy is the fetus considered to be a human being. After answering this question the dilemma can easily be rosolved: If the fetus  dies before being considered a human being then its a single murder if not then its a double one.

Of course defining when human life begins is not easy.. And I`m not going to try to...

[Dark_4ce]

Birth control is such a tricky subject, because both sides of the fence have their very good points.

I also support birth control, but only as far as the mother knows what she's doing. As in its ok for her to do whatever she wants to herself, as long as she knows the concequences. Because in the end its her who will have to live with that decision.

I agree however, if a mother wants an abortion and the father is a part of the relationship she should, just out of the fathers sake, consent with him before doing such a thing. As well as talking to a professional. And I agree that abortion should not be used as birth control.

I support abortion when theres good reason for it, but I still personally don't like the idea. As in, its a shame to do such a thing. Oh well, thats just my two cents.

[BlackDove]

Originally posted by Flipside
I don't like to have double standards, so why should I think of this double-murder conviction as 'ok' and yet still feel that Abortion should be a matter of Pro-choice?

Probably because it's common knowledge that a fetus starts developing brainwaves a couple of weeks after it's concieved, therefore making it a living bieing - one of "us" so to speak.

The reason you think abortion should be pro-choice, is probably because you're fine with an idiot reaching a decision werther or not to kill a person because it would be an inconvenience, or for whatever other reason.

Naturally, there are special circumstances, when a child is a product of a rape fest, etc. The paragraph above only includes women who love a guy to ejaculate inside them, but aren't prepared to face the consequences of what that actually means. Or in their words "OOOOOOPPPPPPSSSSSSS"

Meh. The above sounds like I'm actually against pro-choice. I think it should be no choice - you need a ****ing licence in the first place. If you screw up, they execute the mother, the father, and the baby on-site.

Oh wait, that's harsh.

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Primus
@Tiara
It takes 1 to carry the baby. And ofcourse man can have a say in the matter. But he can't make the decision. That's how I see it.

Under 'normal' circumstances, it is a descision BOTH parents have to make. They are BOTH equally responsible for the choice they make.

If the mother decides halfway that she doesn't want the baby anymore because she 'has changed her mind', the father should have all the rights in the world to have a (legal) say in the issue at hand.

Just because she carries the baby doesn't mean she can decide wether to have it or not. She made a conscious choice when she got into it and she can't just back out if the father wants to have this baby.

It's not a goddamn football game in which you simply fold if things get a little rough and let your pals take the heat.

[Primus]

In no goddamn way, nobody can tell a woman that she must have the baby.  Again, she carries the baby. And the baby is part of her for nine frikkin' months. Her decision. Period.

[Tiara]

If an adult woman has made the descision to have a child, she has to see it through (barring unforseen circumstances such as illness of the child etcetera or extenuating conditions such as teenage pregnancy).

If she has no legitimate reason for abortion she should ****ing well live with the descision she made. this doesn;t mean she has to keep the child, the father can take the child since he still wanted the child in this scenario.

But if we allow adults to make such important, life-changing descisions and then for no apparant reason back away without, we are just as much at fault as the mother herself.

In short; If someone makes the descision to have a child, they should see it through. it's not like deciding which side of the bed you'll get out today.

I'm pro-abortion if there is a reason. But abortion for no ****ing reason just pisses me off. Such people should think about it before they decide to have a kid.

[Kie99]

Originally posted by Primus
In no goddamn way, nobody can tell a woman that she must have the baby.  Again, she carries the baby. And the baby is part of her for nine frikkin' months. Her decision. Period.

For God's sake the baby is the father's flesh and blood as well as the Mother's.  THe mother has no right to kill someone else's flesh and blood.

[Goober5000]

It's not "period", otherwise we wouldn't be having this debate.

I wholeheartedly agree with Tiara's position.  (We diverge on the question of "when does the baby become alive", but from a practical point of view I'd much rather have that system in the U.S. than the current one.)

Since two people are involved in conceiving the baby, it belongs to both those people.  The only situation where your argument would hold any weight, Primus, is if the woman were a single parent who impregnated herself with sperm from an anonymous donor.  The other party has absolved himself of all ownership of the baby without imposing any obligation to have the baby.  Unless you remove both ownership and obligation for one party -- and this is the only case where that is possible -- then both parties are entitled to have a say.

[Primus]

It's so ****ing easy for a man to say that he wants or doesn't want a child. He isn't the one who has to carry the baby for nine months and put his health in for a possible danger. Neither he has to go through the abortion.

EDIT
Period. From my end. Meaning, I stand ground with my opinions.