Author Topic: A Moral Dilemma....  (Read 4142 times)

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Offline StratComm

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Quote
Originally posted by Primus
It's so ****ing easy for a man to say that he wants or doesn't want a child. He isn't the one who has to carry the baby for nine months and put his health in for a possible danger. Neither he has to go through the abortion.


It really isn't though; it's easy to say that he wants the child to be carried and then doesn't want to support it, yes, but that's outside the context of this argument.  It's true that the male doesn't have to go through the pregnancy or delivery of a child, but he sure has to be a part of raising it.  In the scenario we're debating, the father is willing to take that responsibility from the mother, and doesn't want to have her unilaterally decide to terminate the potential life of the child.  If both parents don't want to support the kid, then there's a case where abortion makes some sense (disregarding the pro-life argument for the moment).  But if one does, the other shouldn't have the right to deny that just to escape the consequences of her actions (i.e. the pregnancy) at her partner's expense.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Primus

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I see your point.. But.. If the woman doesn't want the child and the man does, she should go through pregnancy and delivery, so that the man could have the child?
I think that's wrong. Why? Because the mother don't have to go through all that because somebody else wants so.
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Offline Kie99

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IMO its her own fault for getting pregnant in the first place.  After all there's nothing stopping her using the pill, if she doesn't want to get pregnant she could either insist the man uses a Condom or take the pill.

This raises another interesting point, if the man doesn't want the woman to keep the baby then should the man make support payments to the mother.
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Offline StratComm

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Ideally no, practically yes.  There's too many slackers out there who would get a woman pregnant and then leave her to fend for herself for that to work as it should.  There are plenty of situations in which the man shouldn't be as responsible as he is, but weeding those out of the garbage is very tough.  Remember that an abortion is not always an economically or morally viable option, depending on a lot more than just the woman's own opinions.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Kie99

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Well obviously if the man stopped the woman having the Abortion then he would have to pay support.  Otherwise he could use it as a punishment.
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Offline redmenace

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It is a double standard and frankly for a person to support abortion and double murder it is a bit hypocritical considering the fact that on one hand you have the opinion that it is not a person but tissue and therefore not its self alive. I support the law, but I don't support abortion. And I get the feeling that this thread is fishing for a way to coincide each veiw and they simply cannot.
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Offline ShadowWolf_IH

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Tiara in the two and a half years that i have been here, i think that this is the first time we have agreed on anything.  I'm glad it's something big instead of what we thought the best movie of 2004 was.
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Offline Tiara

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Quote
Originally posted by StratComm
Ideally no, practically yes.  There's too many slackers out there who would get a woman pregnant and then leave her to fend for herself for that to work as it should.  There are plenty of situations in which the man shouldn't be as responsible as he is, but weeding those out of the garbage is very tough.  Remember that an abortion is not always an economically or morally viable option, depending on a lot more than just the woman's own opinions.

We aren't discussing those slackers out there. We're discussing a man who wants to take full responsibility for the child after birth. If the man is to be the sole guardian, then he is obligated by law to take adequate care of the child. If he fails to do so, it would fall into the catagory criminal negligence if I'm not mistaken.

However, I still stand by my point that when and if the woman and man consciously make the descision to have a child they CANNOT abort it just because they got stage fright. If he OR she didn't know for sure they should've used condoms and/or the pill (or other anti-conception means).

Once a woman is pregnant through a conscious descision, she should see it through.

Now, if the condom ruptured, she was raped, one night stand while single, etc... then there is a reason to have an abortion. but not because she got cold feet. they should've thought of that before they made their conscious descision.
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Offline Sesquipedalian

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Quote
Originally posted by Primus
It's so ****ing easy for a man to say that he wants or doesn't want a child. He isn't the one who has to carry the baby for nine months and put his health in for a possible danger. Neither he has to go through the abortion.
You are aware that Tiara is a woman, yes?

Incidentally, last summer I bought a one year gym membership.  I used it for a few months, but stopped going some time ago.  However, I still responsible to pay for it.  And that was just a measly gym membership and $24 per month.

Somewhere in a major city today, some guy got busted for robbing a convenience store.  He's going to be tossed in jail for a while.  If (miracle of miracles) the prison system convinces him that doesn't want to be a criminal anymore, he still can't leave until at least the minimum time alloted as punishment has passed.

When you make choices, they have consequences, and when your actions entail obligations to others, you are bound by those obligations.  You choose to sleep with someone, you deal with the consequences.  Getting pregnant entails obligations to other lives than your own, and so you are bound by those obligations.
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Offline StratComm

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I agree with you wholeheartedly Tiara, which is why my post starts with "ideally no".  But you can't have the argument without the legal implications, which is all I'm trying to point out.  Truth be told, if the man takes sole custody the mother doesn't want it, it verges on her needing to pay child support.  The law should be gender-blind here, but it isn't nor will it ever be.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Primus

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Quote
Originally posted by Sesquipedalian

You are aware that Tiara is a woman, yes?


Yes.

Quote
Originally posted by Tiara

However, I still stand by my point that when and if the woman and man consciously make the descision to have a child they CANNOT abort it just because they got stage fright. If he OR she didn't know for sure they should've used condoms and/or the pill (or other anti-conception means).

Once a woman is pregnant through a conscious descision, she should see it through.

Now, if the condom ruptured, she was raped, one night stand while single, etc... then there is a reason to have an abortion. but not because she got cold feet. they should've thought of that before they made their conscious descision.


I agree.
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Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
You are aware that Tiara is a woman, yes?


What's that got to do with anything? Regardless of where you stand on the abortion issue you can point at tonnes of women who are "wrong".
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Quote
Originally posted by Primus
I see your point.. But.. If the woman doesn't want the child and the man does, she should go through pregnancy and delivery, so that the man could have the child?
I think that's wrong. Why? Because the mother don't have to go through all that because somebody else wants so.


Primus, its a baby, not a cancerous tumor.  Women have been having babies since the dawn of time.  :)  

I believe that two people consenting to sex also must realize that even with birth control they are risking pregnancy.  It goes with the territory....so thereby consenting to sex, you are also consenting to the possibility of pregnancy.  If you're both adult enough for sex, then by God, be adult enough to take responsibility for the consequences.  If not, then keep your stuff in your pants.

 

Offline Primus

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Yes, I know, Sapp :) But pregnancy and delivery don't always go without problems.
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Offline ShadowWolf_IH

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No they don't.  and the woman knows that when she has sex.  she knows every chance that she is taking, ie disease, pregnancy, etc.  So she does it the full knowledge.  yet she can kill a man's child when she decides to.
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Offline Primus

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Yeah. Ofcourse there's possibility of a pregnancy, even when using protection. But that doesn't mean that the woman can't do an abortion if she wants to, even if the man wants to have the child.

*Edited*
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Offline Flipside

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Sapphire is right, in my opinion, to taking more responsibility to where you stick your wanger, however, hormones are not famed for being reasonable or responsible, the human race comes with a built in drive to 'make babies'.

Sharon wouldn't have an abortion if an accident happened, and I respect that choice and would, obviously, support it, even though I have no particular wish to be a father, should a child come along, I would try to e the best father I could, but I think the problem does not lay with people of my age, it lay with teenage pregnancies etc. A girl or boy goes out with his mates, gets a bit drunk etc etc, and the next thing they know, they are going to be a parent, and they are neither phsycologically nor financially prepared.

Yes, reponsibility is required, but to attempt to apply the same ethics to people who are flooded with Testoserone, who feel constantly pressured to 'prove' their sexuality, and who are fighting against a bodily 'demand' that is, from a species point of view, a matter of life AND death is difficult.

I think the option should be available, but, as in Holland, where possible, every care is taken to make sure there are no other options available to the person involved.

Doctors don't actually like performing abortions too often, it damages the womb, and always carries a possiblity of rendering the woman infertile. I think this is not common enough knowledge, and that an attitude of 'An Alternative to the Pill' can be adopted by girls. But then choosing to have your child killed is far from an easy decision to make.

I suppose my concern in that respect is that the decisions on the laws regarding Abortion are being made by groups that consist predominately of malesand women who have never been in desperate enough a situation to see abortion as their only option.

 

Offline ShadowWolf_IH

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so the man has no rights if the woman wants to abort, but if she wants to keep it and the man doesn't, then he still has no rights and pays the child support.  in your way of thinking, men have no rights.

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Offline Flipside

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Not exactly, that's sort of murky water. In my opinion Men should only have to pay Child support if it is his direct actions that ended the relationship, i.e. unfaithfullness, violence etc. If the break-up is caused by the woman, then she has made her choice and should live with it. If it is mutual then they can sort it out themselves, and only take it to court if there is a dispute.

It's the only way it can work really, else the whole siutation turns around and you'd have scores of men claiming, 'I wanted the baby aborted but she didn't' just to get out of paying for it.

 

Offline ShadowWolf_IH

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no, i think that the non custodial p[arent should have to pay.  but by what Primus is saying, the man has no rights at all.  If she says kill, they kill it regardless of what he wants, if she says, let it live, then he pays regardless of what he wants.  it's a double standard.
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