[ShadowWolf_IH]

thank you.  now back to our other conversation.  Hitler, Stalin, etc....you forgot some others...Washington, Churchill, Charlemagne.  These were also people who beleived in what they were doing.  Your examples were all fairly nefarious, which shows what you think of Sandwich.  My big point in this is simple, he is following his convictions.  Either he is more strongly convicted, or his heart is more free, or he simply has more courage to follow it, than you do.  You enjoy sitting there telling him that he has no right to be there, if you feel that strongly, then follow his example, and do something with your convictions.  if you are not willing to go to the great lengths that he is going to, then you obviously do not have the same degree of conviction or commitment to the ideals that you harbor.

in essence, it is my opinion that if you are not willing to be as convicted in your beliefs as someone that you are oposed to, then you have accepted what they are doing as "the way things are".  if you are going to sit back and accept them and not try to change them, then you have no right or reason to *****.  If you felt strongly enough about sandwich having no right to be there, or felt strongly enough that the Palestinians were being persecuted, you would take arms against him, and with them, respectively.  but you won't, because you don't.  it's easy to pass judgement from a cushy chair.  Go fight for palestine.  Do something with your convictions besides ***** about them on HLP.  I wouldn't agree with what you did, but at least then i could respect you as a person who FOLLOWED HIS CONVICTIONS.  As it is, i pretty much see you as a poser who likes to hear the sound of his own voice.  By your reluctance to do what is necessary to remove Sandwich from Isaeli soil, or to help anyone remove the Israelis from the gaza and the West Bank, you are thereby accepting that they are there.  You don't like it, but are not willing to do anything to change it.  Yet somehow you find in there the right to ***** about it.  

If you are not going to do anything to change what you don't like, then you have nothing to ***** about.  it's like someone giving you a free lunch, and then *****ing that it was a hamburger instead of  pizza.  You don't have to accept things as they are, you can buy yourself a pizza instead.  if you feel strongly enough, you can go and change things, or at least be strong enough in your convictions to try.  All it takes is courage.

yeah i pretty much applaud sandy being there.

[Rictor]

Oh, it's on now!

[Gank]

Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
thank you.  now back to our other conversation.  Hitler, Stalin, etc....you forgot some others...

thats not what you said, you said he had a right to do it because he belived in it, its complete and utter bull****, as is everything else you've said here. the fact that hes following his convictions does not excuse the fact that hes doing wrong.

If what you say is true, then obviously you respect the suicide bombers, who have so much conviction they blow themselves up, or whoever flew those planes into the wtc, because they must have been highly convicted. Your arguements bollocks.

You claim to be a christian then tell me I should go kill people because I dont agree with what they're doing, you're no christian, you dont even know what the man was preaching. Hypocrites like you make me sick.

[Gank]

Btw Shadowolf, I'm guessing by your continual demands I answer your questions you think what you have to say is important, I dont. Frankly I think you're a self important prick who thinks he alone can tell people what they can and cant talk about. I have way way more respect for Sandwich then the likes of you.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

no, i'm telling you that until you have followed your convictions to the length that he is following his, you have no right to tell him not to.  him doing wrong is your opinion, which you continually state as fact.  anyone with an oposing opinion to yours is immediately considered wrong by you.  your opinion is simply that, an opinion and not fact, and based on your opinion you have no right whatsoever to attack anyone, especially not sandwich, who is simply following his convictions and defending something that he believes in.

I'm not telling you to kill anyone, taking arms is a phrase, you have chosen to take it to mean pick up a gun, instead of simply fight for your beliefs.  Only someone who feels themselves to be inferior would think that violence is the only way.  There are many avenues, you could go and grow crops for the palestinians, and support the army that you aperantly believe to be right.  how convicted are you in your beliefs?

what happens when you are growing said crops and they ask you to strap a bomb to your chest?  do your convictions end there?  sandwich is putting his life on the line for his beliefs, i dare you to do the same.  You won't.

i said that sandwich was there followinf his convictions...you retorted with hitler and stalin.  in essence comparing sandwich to them.  People like you who have to sit and constantly whine about everything because they know that deep down inside they haven't the courage to attempt to change anything, let alone put the life that they hold above all others in jeopardy, are what really make me sick in this world.  I don't agree with the palestinians, or the Iraqis.  But at least, like sandwich, i can respect them as a being of courage.  That's the difference between reality and arrogance, in reality i can disagree with my enemy and respect him.  In arrogance, you can state your opinion as fact, as you have done repeatedly here at HLP.

in the end, i see violence as a sometimes necessary evil.  You see it as a punchline.  I would much prefer that things in Israel get settled, so that i no longer have to worry about a friend that i respect.  If that ever happens, you will be like the comedians after the OJ simpson trial who were looking for new material.  All you want to do is whine.  Do something about it, instead of just whine about everything that you do not agree with.

I am not the only person who grows tired of your personal attacks whenever someone else has an oposing viewpoint.

[Gank]

Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
our opinion is simply that, an opinion and not fact,

And all this is your opinion, and you're stating it as fact.  I've already told you what I think of your opinion.

Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
I am not the only person who grows tired of your personal attacks whenever someone else has an oposing viewpoint.

Maybe not, but you're probably the only person hypocritical enough to complain about them after throwing the first stone.

Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
 As it is, i pretty much see you as a poser who likes to hear the sound of his own voice.  

You make it sound so simple btw, go to palestine, pick up a gun, fight. Shows how much you know about the world. In the space of an hour, you've determined that I'm unwilling to fight for my convictions, despite the fact that you know nothing about me. What I do, what groups I'm involved with, who I work for, even what my name is. Yet you think I'm the arrogant one.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

No Gank, i am the only person who will actually say something about it when you start.  but let's end this with me explaining this entire conversation to you.  you are far too easily baited, and i enjoy you for that.  

[Gank]

Are you trying to sound clever now? Its not working.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

thank you for proving that point.  

have some more bait.  

and as previously promised.....
http://pub12.ezboard.com/fpoliticalpalacefrm1

[Gank]

You're still not sounding clever, just stupid.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

[Gank]

[karajorma]

Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
no, i'm telling you that until you have followed your convictions to the length that he is following his, you have no right to tell him not to.  him doing wrong is your opinion, which you continually state as fact.  anyone with an oposing opinion to yours is immediately considered wrong by you.  your opinion is simply that, an opinion and not fact, and based on your opinion you have no right whatsoever to attack anyone, especially not sandwich, who is simply following his convictions and defending something that he believes in.

Sorry Shadow Wolf but I seriously disagree with your logic here. Take the more extreme example of a serial killer at work in your area. By your logic we should either form a vigilante mob to hunt him down or just let him carry on and not say a word because we haven't got the conviction to take him down personally. After all the killer has a lot of conviction that he's right.

The worst thing the west can do is for the population to shut up and leave the Middle East alone while continuing to arm and fund the various factions in the area. People do need to mention what is going on because we live in democracies (well most of us do!) and the greatest weapon the electorate can hold is knowledge. An ignorant electorate is easily led.

I will agree that there's no need for name calling or insulting in the dicussion though.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Gank
Again pathetic Sandy, In case you've forgotten btw, we have friends in jenin, the refugee camp you drove through lobbing tank shells through windows. Do I have the full picture, probably not, but I dont see how you think uyou can see it from the guardtower you're in.

The way I see it is this: The mainstream media in Israel (ie Yediot Aharonot, Ma'ariv, Ha'Aretz, Jerusalem Post) doesn't always portray things in a middle-of-the-road manner, but it does generally give both "sides", both viewpoints a say.

For example, Yediot Aharonot has been running what seems to be a daily story, a sort of fact sheet on different families in the Gaza strip that are facing forced relocation. But they are also reporting interviews with Palestinian families in Gaza who will be affected by the pullout - Friday's extended edition paper had, IIRC, 3 full pages devoted to one such interview.

People here get full exposure to both sides, partially because the vast division in public opinion demands that the media "satisfy" both sides. From what I've seen when overseas, the reporting on the Israeli-Palestinian issue is strictly a middle-of-the-road kind of reporting. Granted, they cannot devote the same resources that the local media can in reporting on the situation... but that's precisley my point.

Originally posted by Gank
How on earth does that affect it? You honestly think hes going to partake in the dispossession of a whole people because somebody blew themselves up. Does it not occour to you that Jesus isnt likely to take either side in the conflict, because neither Islamic Jihad nor the Likudniks love their neighbours as themselves.

If you believe that Jesus exists (which, for argument's sake, you obviously do), then tell me this: what is your basis for guessing at what He would or would not do? The only account of Him we have is the Bible, right? Well, have you missed all the parts of that account where He makes it quite clear that Israel is His beloved?

I don't mean to offend people here by getting all religious, but you brought up the question of "What Would Jesus Do?" into all this, so here's your answer: According to the Bible, Israel is the "apple of God's eye." Do you take kindly to being poked in the eye?

Also, the Bible states that God's love in an unconditional love - you don't have to be good to be loved, you don't have to obey, go to church, sacrifice burnt offerings - zilch. God loves you, me, the Palestinians, the Israelis - fact. He grieves when we choose to reject and ignore Him, but that does not change His love for us.

So just because not many people around here follow the "Love your neighbor as yourself" commandment, doesn't mean that God will reject them because of it. Not at all.

[Gank]

And god has punished Israel many times for doing stuff he doesnt like. Your logic is flawed here, you're assuming because Israel is beloved it can do no wrong, the bible itself says otherwise. And iirc there were 12 tribes in Israel, no? How can Israel exist without the lost ten?

Btw I do read Israeli news, the online stuff anyways. just because I dont read what effect the gaza pullout is going to have on the Hassan family from Khan Younis doesnt mean I dont understand whats going on Sandwich, because at the end of the day whats happening to the Hassan family from Khan Younis isnt a very significent part of the big picture.

Btw I'd strongly disagree with the idea of jp giving anything approaching a middle of the road view, it puts fox to shame.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

There is a huge difference between defending Israel (physically) and being a serial murderer.  I don't think that i need to say anything else about that.

as far as everyone shutting up, well that doesn't need to happen.  Certain people need to not make it personal.

[vyper]

Originally posted by Sandwich


I was hoping the Palestinian terrorists learned something from it; I'm not about to go blow myself or anyone else up because of what I believe in. Sure, I'll stand for what I believe in, but not to the point of enforcing my beliefs on others (all you here at HLP know what at least about me), not to mention actively causing harm!

EDIT: Kara, I didn't see your post before, probably because of the new page. I'm going off guard duty now, but I'll try to respond when I get back - probably in 4 or 6 hours. Just don't think I'm ignoring you, dude.

I think you missed my point and the episodes.

[Styxx]

Ditch the personal attacks now or this thread goes the way of the Dodo.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
There is a huge difference between defending Israel (physically) and being a serial murderer.  I don't think that i need to say anything else about that.  

Which is why I said mine was an extreme example. The point was to show the logical fallacy of saying that unless you phyically fight something you can't say it's wrong.

[Bobboau]

you can say it's wrong, it's just your words are prety much worthless for the most part.