[Kazan]

Originally posted by aldo_14
scientifically defined point of life.  

which is the only definition the law can consider in a democratic country with the seperation of church and state

Originally posted by aldo_14
What I'm asking is,  really, that people can understand that view can differ (and in many, many different ways, too), it's equally legitimate to do so, and please just let people make that decision for themselves rather than legislate it upon them.

 

and aldo introduces the hammer to the nail's head

[WeatherOp]

Originally posted by aldo_14
On the subject of child cruelty, I think it'd be very rare you'll find an abused child being returned to the parent doing the abusing; I think possibly what you're thinking is really that it feels like you can't punish some of these people enough.

 I suspect the beating of children may have actually been more common 100 years ago, though - but it would have been accepted as part of 'discipline'.

Sadly that is not true, Belive me, my family is a foster home, The only way they will take away a child right off the bat, is if they nearly kill it, otherwise, lets say a broken arm, maybe a few broken ribs, and DHR steps up right away to give the stupid idiots another chance. And then They give the child right back to e'm, they come back into DHR care with more injuries, and guess what happens next they give them another chance. Trust me, I've herd storys that would make you want to beat those morons so bad you can't tell what they are after you're done, and DHR gives the Child right back to them. And if they finally come back 4 or 5 times then they take the child away permently, and let them have a good home.

[Kazan]

weatherop is right about DHR/DHS/whatever-your-state-calls-it

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Sapphire
I find it amusing how primitive bacteria on another planet is considered "life" by science and intelligent people, yet an unborn fetus isn't....

And yet we exterminate bacteria by the trillions every day. Why? Cause bacteria have no capacity to feel pain so if they get in the way there is nothing morally wrong in killing them.

[Kazan]

just like a featus isn't an individual, so cannot be considered a legal entity

[WeatherOp]

Has the thought ever come to you, "what if they do feel pain", or do you just not want to think about it?

[Ghostavo]

Originally posted by WeatherOp
Has the thought ever come to you, "what if they do feel pain", or do you just not want to think about it?

So you want to stop killing bacteria?

Verywell,
stop breathing... oh wait
stop walking... oh wait
stop talking... oh wait
stop living... oh wait
stop aging... oh wait
(...)

You get the point...

[karajorma]

Originally posted by WeatherOp
Has the thought ever come to you, "what if they do feel pain", or do you just not want to think about it?

No brain. No pain.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by karajorma


No brain. No pain.

I'd also like to add - no Central Nervous System, either.  So there's not the system which produces pain signals, nor the organ which processes them.

Originally posted by Kazan
weatherop is right about DHR/DHS/whatever-your-state-calls-it

Well, I'm not aware of that in the UK.  There have been some pretty apalling cases where neglect has been missed, but not that - I can remember - where a child has been returned to a convicted an abuser.  Possibly I'm wrong - I've not exactly done comprehensive research today - but I don't believe that from my (UK) perspective society views animals as having more rights than children.

[WeatherOp]

Hmmm, I was sure the heart of an infant starts beating around 3 weeks after concpetion, And I was sure your brain is what tells your heart to beat. Wait, some how I know that this will take us to another religion thread, so I will shut up now.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by WeatherOp
Hmmm, I was sure the heart of an infant starts beating around 3 weeks after concpetion, And I was sure your brain is what tells your heart to beat. Wait, some how I know that this will take us to another religion thread, so I will shut up now.

IIRC the parts of the brain which deal with pain (i.e. handle nerve impulse), cognitive thought, etc, only become active at 24-25 weeks.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by aldo_14
I'd also like to add - no Central Nervous System, either.  So there's not the system which produces pain signals, nor the organ which processes them.

I was going to say that but it didn't rhyme

[Ford Prefect]

I think pro-choice people make too much of an effort to weasel their way around the issue by debating what constitutes human life.

I recognize that a fetus is human life; I just don't have a problem with killing it. What good can come from someone having a child who doesn't want it? It just seems to me that a large part of the anti-choice movement is about punishing the mother for "immoral" behavior, rather than protecting a baby who nobody genuinely cares about anyway.

[WeatherOp]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
rather than protecting a baby who nobody genuinely cares about anyway.

Dude, you are so wrong, There are thousands of people who would like to adopt, you know that mother could get her entire Hospital bill paid by someone who wants that baby. All she has to do is give it up at birth, and that baby would go to someone who would love it, and she wouldn't be charged with a felony for leaving it there.There are also thousands of people who want kids but can't have e'm. But, the reason they choose abortion is because it is their baby wether they want it or not, I hear about that being in a Foster Family, they don't want the baby to love, but they like the power of saying "that is MY  kid, and I'll do what I want with it".

[karajorma]

There are thousands of kids in orphanages and care homes. Give them a place to live first and maybe someone would believe you.

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
I think pro-choice people make too much of an effort to weasel their way around the issue by debating what constitutes human life.

I recognize that a fetus is human life; I just don't have a problem with killing it.

I disagree completely. A foetus is not a human life. It's a potential human life no different from a sperm on it's way to the egg. There's nothing magical that happens at the actual point of conception.

Just as the sperm might not actually fertilise the egg there's a chance that the embryo might not implant.

[WeatherOp]

If DHR would stop juggleing the kids around for years, they would get adopted, or the stupid parents would give e'm up..Foster familyes would adopt of e'm, if DHR would let e'm instead sends e'm back to their parents. After you've got attached to them, and they have been taken and put back with the parents, it's very hard to countinue, and that is where most quit.

[karajorma]

Then go after the DHR first. Prove your supposition that there is a family for every single unwanted child first then start complaining about abortion.

It seems to me that children who are alive and here and dying of neglect are more worthy of your time than campaigning about unwanted, unborn (and according to some of us unalive) children.

You've even got a sympathetic president for Jebus's sake! Who's in charge of DHR? Oh yes. It's YOUR government. Why isn't Bush trying to prove that there is someone who actually wants these kids in America instead of trying to get motions passes to have more of them everywhere else in the world.

[WeatherOp]

Thats the only problem goverment is goverment, no matter who's in charge at the White House. And anyways Bush couldn't do that much more without the Senate and House's approval. But there should be more done tho. DHR really needs to change, but It is really the state goverments who should do something about it.

[karajorma]

Then lobby them. The Pro-life movement spends thousends of man-hours lobbying, complaining and picketing. Why not spend that time on getting something done about something that both sides agree needs serious change.

You make it sound like the whole pro-life movement are incapable of pursuading anyone to change their minds. If that's the case they might as well pack up and go home instead of picketing abortion clinics and shooting doctors.

Why not picket congress and shoot congressmen instead?

[Mongoose]

Originally posted by Kazan
to put more fine of a point on one aldo's saying

a "featus" does not becoming an individual (And therefore even able to be CONSIDERED in a court of law) until very late in the third trimester when it becomes able to live outside the mothers body without the aid of modern medical technology

as one british lawmaker put it: "any other opinion is religious"

Anyone else besides me think that this particular opinion is royally ****ed up?  So by your definition, Kazan, anyone relying on a pacemaker or respirator to survive is no longer an individual, since they can't survive without the aid of modern medical technology?  I don't care what you believe about abortion; Kazan's statement is just plain messed up.  Late third trimester?  How the hell can you justify that?  So, all the preemies born at 24 weeks don't count either?  Are you even listening to yourself?

Yup, Kazan comes back, and any political/religious discussion is immediately shot to hell.  Ain't it grand?