Author Topic: America urges UN to renounce abortion rights  (Read 13374 times)

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Offline aldo_14

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America urges UN to renounce abortion rights
Quote
Originally posted by Mongoose

Anyone else besides me think that this particular opinion is royally ****ed up?  So by your definition, Kazan, anyone relying on a pacemaker or respirator to survive is no longer an individual, since they can't survive without the aid of modern medical technology?  I don't care what you believe about abortion; Kazan's statement is just plain messed up.  Late third trimester?  How the hell can you justify that?  So, all the preemies born at 24 weeks don't count either?  Are you even listening to yourself?

Yup, Kazan comes back, and any political/religious discussion is immediately shot to hell.  Ain't it grand?


Actually, Kazans statement is a different situation altogther.  firstly, the issue is not about the foetus being an individual but alive.  A person on a respirator is medically alive, even if it is through artificial means.  A foetus has yet to reach the state of having been alive.

 

Offline WeatherOp

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America urges UN to renounce abortion rights
No there something elso to think about, when Medical tech is high enough for all babys to live outside the human body, will abortion be outlawed then?
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Offline aldo_14

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America urges UN to renounce abortion rights
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Originally posted by WeatherOp
No there something elso to think about, when Medical tech is high enough for all babys to live outside the human body, will abortion be outlawed then?


At that stage it would be petri dish reproduction, though, which would give a whole different social system regarding sex.  When all foetuses can be brought to 'life' outside the womb, it means the womb itself becomes redundant, as does the use of sex for reproduction. ... so it'd be plausible that abortion itself would be unecessary, as everyone could have their DNA (or sperm & eggs) harvested and stored, and then be vasectomised for pregnancy-free sex.

 

Offline WMCoolmon

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America urges UN to renounce abortion rights
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Denial of free choice irrespective of religion. Any ban would be based upon a religious belief over the beginning of life (as there is no scientific evidence to support it AFAIK), and thus would impose that belief (or rather, its consequences) upon everyone.


No way.

Even going by what's known about the developmental process, setting an arbitrary limit based on generalizations doesn't fly as 'science'. It's even less definite than whatever the bible must be saying constitutes human life. Of course, I haven't actually seen anyone post relevant passages, but everyone seems to assume there's something in the bible that says it's true. :doubt:

To get science truly involved, you have to recognize that there is a difference in the rate of development. It's pretty uniform; but I have a hard time believing that at 5 months 29 days, a foetus has no brain and no capacity to feel pain, but then at 6 months, it suddenly does.

Scientific evidence which does support it? High-school Biology, actually. After fertilization, the DNA of a Foetus is that of a human. It has a full set of 23(46) chromosomes. If given time, it will eventually grow and develop into a human being, provided it isn't naturally aborted (or, of course, artificially aborted).

Going further on, when the baby is born, it is a separate entity from its mother, but it still requires care. It is incapable of many of the things that ordinary humans are. It is not biologically entwined its mother's body system, however, but I think the main difference is that it can interact with other people. Most people (myself included) find the thought of killing a baby post-birth repulsive, regardless of how many months old it is.

To me, this seems to be based mostly on an individual basis. I know there was a group of people who were talking about or trying to get it legalized to 'abort' from conception to 2 years after birth. Does that mean they are less religious than people on this board? Doubt it. We've got/had some pretty dedicated atheists here. ;) I do think it means that they operate on a different code, I'll say, than other people. I can see different ideologies playing a part in making the decision as to what 'human life' really is, but I don't think that religion is the only difference in ideology that exists.

Anyway, regarding civil rights, defining civil is another grey area. What happens when one person's 'right' bumps into another? If I play a Britney Spears song, when does my right to exercise 'freedom of expression' violate my neighbor's right from 'cruel and unusual punishment'? ;)
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Offline WeatherOp

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America urges UN to renounce abortion rights
I think that is pretty well said,WMCoolmon
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Offline Kazan

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America urges UN to renounce abortion rights
Quote
Originally posted by WeatherOp
And I was sure your brain is what tells your heart to beat.  


there is your error

the heart hase it's own seperate mininervous system for internal pacekeeping
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Offline Kazan

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America urges UN to renounce abortion rights
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Originally posted by WeatherOp
No there something elso to think about, when Medical tech is high enough for all babys to live outside the human body, will abortion be outlawed then?


no, that's why there is a claus in the definition "Without the aid of medical technology"

without that claus you'd be changing from attempting to force the mt o do something they don't want to do, to forcing them to pay for something they don't want to do
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Offline Kazan

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America urges UN to renounce abortion rights
WMC: it's a seperate entity when it becomes able to live outside of it's mothers body without the aid of modern medical technology

obviously the varies from child to child so you have to set the "Average"


it's has nothing to do with whether it's "life" let alone "human life" (as if we're so ****ing special) - it's "Whether it is an individual" - the court CAN ONLY consider individuals


once someone gains individuality it's not lost -


there went all of mongoose's suppoisitions out the window
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Offline Kazan

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America urges UN to renounce abortion rights
Quote
Originally posted by Mongoose


Yup, Kazan comes back, and any political/religious discussion is immediately shot to hell.  Ain't it grand?


just because you're unwilling (incapable?) to listen to a complex answer in favor of your totalitarian theocratic answer doesn't mean the discussion is immediately shot to hell

infact your making this statement shows exactly why you don't belong thinking your opinion has any validity


educate thyself before opening thy mouth!
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Offline aldo_14

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America urges UN to renounce abortion rights
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon


No way.

Even going by what's known about the developmental process, setting an arbitrary limit based on generalizations doesn't fly as 'science'. It's even less definite than whatever the bible must be saying constitutes human life. Of course, I haven't actually seen anyone post relevant passages, but everyone seems to assume there's something in the bible that says it's true. :doubt:

To get science truly involved, you have to recognize that there is a difference in the rate of development. It's pretty uniform; but I have a hard time believing that at 5 months 29 days, a foetus has no brain and no capacity to feel pain, but then at 6 months, it suddenly does.

Scientific evidence which does support it? High-school Biology, actually. After fertilization, the DNA of a Foetus is that of a human. It has a full set of 23(46) chromosomes. If given time, it will eventually grow and develop into a human being, provided it isn't naturally aborted (or, of course, artificially aborted).

Going further on, when the baby is born, it is a separate entity from its mother, but it still requires care. It is incapable of many of the things that ordinary humans are. It is not biologically entwined its mother's body system, however, but I think the main difference is that it can interact with other people. Most people (myself included) find the thought of killing a baby post-birth repulsive, regardless of how many months old it is.
 


I disagree with that definition of life; my definition of life - human life - (and what I think is close to the scientific and medical basis) requires consciousness, intelligence and active thought towards life processed.  DNA alone does not constitute life IMO; it just provides a recipe for it.  

My understanding is that life is defined in terms of development by the beginnings of the appropriate electrical signals within the brain, denoting mental activity.

 The issue of life outside the body is not related to care, but physical necessity; a baby can see and consume food, drink, etc of an appropriate sort once given, and it can of course breathe.   It's organs can process that food.

 The foetus cannot; it is reliant upon the biological processes of the mother to convey its nutrition.  It's physical body is incapable of sustaining itself.

What you are defining as generalizations are really just guidelines.  Abortions in most countries require the approval of a doctor - in the UK it's 2 - to gain clinical oversight and avoid the situation you describe.

 

Offline Goober5000

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America urges UN to renounce abortion rights
Kazan, you've been warned before.  Attack the argument, not the person.

I'm sure these threads can continue without you.  Another incident and you'll be a Hard Light Monkey again.

 

Offline Kazan

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America urges UN to renounce abortion rights
goober if you're going to warn me, warn them too

double standards are great when they work in your favor aren't they?
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Offline aldo_14

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America urges UN to renounce abortion rights
They haven't insulted anyone, (as far as I can recall) Kazan.

 

Offline Kazan

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America urges UN to renounce abortion rights
go read mongoose's post again


------------

oh btw: if you think it's insulting someone to tell them to know their facts before opening their mouths then you think debate itself is insulting because debate IS the art of telling the other person they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground!
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Offline Goober5000

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America urges UN to renounce abortion rights
AHEM...

The only person who's insulted anybody in this thread is you, Kazan...
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the religious right are a bunch of hypocritical extremists who's "Solution" to every problem involved A) forcing other people to do things and B) total bull**** beliefs
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kindly STFU on stuff that you have no idea what the **** you're talking about
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they listen to no one but their own delusions and manipulations of those delusions
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just because you're unwilling (incapable?)
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your totalitarian theocratic answer
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debate IS the art of telling the other person they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground!
Those are all insults.

Debates are permitted in this forum, provided nobody engages in name-calling, insults, or flaming.  Anyone who does is warned.  If they continue despite the warning, they are temporarily banned from Hard Light.  If they continue elsewhere, they are banned from the board.

Capisce?

 

Offline Kazan

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America urges UN to renounce abortion rights
ok goober - now warn the other parties or prove me right

(im going to force this - im not going to tolerate double standards - just becaue they aren't as blatant as i am, but they are more insulting because they are presuming)
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America urges UN to renounce abortion rights
Well, in Kazan's defense, this could fairly easily be construed as an insult:

Quote
Yup, Kazan comes back, and any political/religious discussion is immediately shot to hell. Ain't it grand?


at least as much as this:

Quote
debate IS the art of telling the other person they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground!


or this:

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your totalitarian theocratic answer


But yeah, you could tone it down a bit Kazan. Just cuz someone implies something, doesn't necessarily mean you have to one-up them in insults. You could just tear up their argument.
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Offline Kazan

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America urges UN to renounce abortion rights
jetmech: i grow tired of ripping the same arguement to shreds daily and having them play the three-monkeys
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Offline Ford Prefect

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America urges UN to renounce abortion rights
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I disagree completely. A foetus is not a human life. It's a potential human life no different from a sperm on it's way to the egg. There's nothing magical that happens at the actual point of conception.

It's human life in that it's an organism, and it sure as hell won't grow into a rabbit. I certainly agree that conception is nothing magical, but my point is really that it's a gray area of semantics and emotional connotations.
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Offline Grug

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America urges UN to renounce abortion rights
Did you know:
- For the first two weeks a human foetus is identical to any other animal foetus.

I agree with aldo_14.
Once intelligence and self awareness comes into play, then I'd hesitate.
But in the end, it should come down to how the mother wants to proceed.