[WeatherOp]

Wasn't that banned a few years ago by Bush, but the sad fact is I know it still goes on, like your never gonna stop them inporting drugs, it just will never stop just get worse.

[Zarax]

WeatherOp, i can 100% guarantee this is patented BS.
If you do not believe me take a professional book about abortion techniques and you'll see this is pure fantasy.

[WeatherOp]

No, I don't think so, I've herd of partial birth abortions and I've herd thats what they used they would shove a spike like thing in the back of the head and suck out the brains and cut the rest up for experenments.

[Zarax]

WeatherOp, what you hear or what someone says is not constitute a valid proof.
I've heard that pro life extremists practices infubulation but i don't think i'd buy such a thing until i'll see some proof, same should be for you.

[Kazan]

Originally posted by karajorma
So the real reason that there are such a high number of abortons is cause of the pro-lifers and other campaigners against good sex ed in school. Don't lay the blame for this one anywhere else.

=======================================

The first evaluation of programs used throughout the state has found that students in almost all high school grades were more sexually active after abstinence education

http://www.stcynic.com/blog/archives/2005/01/another_study_o.php


http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=19531

=======================================

First, it is important to note the threats that abstinence-only-until-marriage education poses to young people in general. Research has shown that sex education that promotes the delay of first intercourse but simultaneously teaches safer sex practices is more effective than abstinence-only education. A World Health Organization review of 35 sex education programs around the world documented the relative ineffectiveness of abstinence-only education in stemming the spread of sexually transmitted infections.12 A report released by U.S. Surgeon General David Satcher in early 2001 also questioned the effectiveness of abstinence-only education. Satcher noted that there has been little research to demonstrate the effectiveness of this particular type of instruction.13 Moreover, initial indicators are that the Act's abstinence-only provisions have had a chilling effect on the discussion of homosexuality and on sex education efforts aimed at stopping the spread of sexually transmitted infections (STIs) and teen pregnancy.

http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/publications/transitions/transitions1404_6.htm


=======================================

"Current research findings do not support the position that the abstinence-only approach to sexuality education is effective in delaying the onset of intercourse."1 - Council of Scientific Affairs. Report of the Council on Scientific Affairs. [Action of the AMA House of Delegates 1999 Interim Meeting, SCA Report 7-I-99.] Chicago, IL: American Medical Association, 1999.

Cited  http://www.themediaproject.com/facts/sexeducation/mythfact.htm (along with a lot of other good things on that page)

=======================================

This growing body of research highlights a troubling disconnect: While politicians promote abstinence-only education, teachers, parents and students want young people to receive far more comprehensive information about how to avoid unintended pregnancy and STDs, and about how to become sexually healthy adults.


http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/ib_2-01.html


=======================================

During President Bush’s tenure as governor of Texas from 1995 to 2000, for instance, with abstinence-only programs in place, the state ranked last in the nation in the decline of teen birth rates among 15- to 17-year-old females

....

The American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Public Health Association, and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists all support comprehensive sex education programs that encourage abstinence while also providing adolescents with information on how to protect themselves against sexually transmitted diseases. In fact, a recent systematic analysis of pregnancy prevention strategies for adolescents found that, far from reducing unwanted pregnancies, abstinence programs actually “may increase pregnancies in partners of male participants.”

.....

Rather, it is the fact that the Bush administration distorted science-based performance measures to test whether abstinence-only programs were proving effective, such as charting the birth rate of female program participants.47 In place of such established measures, the Bush administration has required the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) to track only participants’ program attendance and attitudes, measures designed to obscure the lack of efficacy of abstinence-only programs.48

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/rsi/page.cfm?pageID=1355


=======================================



AND MORE

http://ari.ucsf.edu/pdf/abstinence.pdf

However, they're not taught how to prevent these risks by engaging in safe sex. As a result, the roughly one-half of teens who have sex before the age of 19 may be unprepared to protect themselves against the dangers they're warned about. - http://www.religiousconsultation.org/News_Tracker/teach_our_kids_sex_reality.htm



=======================================


I could go on and on with more and more source citations

[Kazan]

Originally posted by Liberator
Then why are 7 & 8 month babies being partially delivered and then haveing a hole drilled into their heads and their brains sucked out?

because you were lied to - it this doesn't happen

this is a bull**** description of a Intact Dialation and Extraction - which some moron termed "partial birth abortion"

this proceedure only takes place WHEN THE BABY IS ALREADY DEAD IN THE WOMB (from natural causes 90% of the time, and other trauma inflicted on the mother/developing featus the other 10% of the time)


if they don't perform the proceedure to remove the already dead featus the mother dies too

------------------

Wikipedia-ations

Intact dilation and extraction is a surgical technique which can be used for partial-birth abortion or the removal of a dead fetus after a late-term miscarriage, - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intact_dilation_and_extraction

the only time that "brain sucking out thing" happens is A) the featus is already dead and B) it was misformed so that this has to be done so that it can pass through the cervix

needless to say WOMEN DO NOT UNDERGO THIS PROCEDURE LIGHTLY AND NO DOCTOR ADMINISTERS IT LIGHTLY

[Sapphire]

Of course......its just easier to call me a liar.

[vyper]

It's easier not to give a rats arse and accept that some nasty things have to happen for us to lead our lives the way we want them.

[Kazan]

Sapphire: it's not the first time laws have been made about bull**** that doesn't actually exist

[Sapphire]

 

[vyper]

It's a helluva ride I can tell you that.

[Omniscaper]

Wow, this threads grown. Do people actually expect to change each other's minds? This all boils down to a philsophical battle. Why don't people take this energy and apply it in the real world, where it can actually make a difference (in a non-violent way). Either being involved in some communal activity such as a pro-life or pro-death rally.

[Kazan]

and sapphire conviently ignores the huge source citation post

[aldo_14]

NB: From my understanding, partial birth abortion is only (or should only legally be) performed when the mothers life is in danger or the baby is severly or fatally disabled.  From what I've read the baby is - or rather can be - alive at the point of abortion, although I somehow doubt the term 'sucked out brains' is medically accurate rather than being chosen for emotive value (as is the term 'partial birth abortion'; the medical term is "Intact Dilation and Extraction", which can also refer IIRC to the removal of a dead foetus..

FYI Clinton veto-ed the 2 partial-birth bills as they made no provision for the mothers health.  Now, I'll admit not to being a doctor, but surely if the child cannot be delivered early and survive, and carrying the child will kill the mother and the child as a consequence, then it should ethical to perform the procedure.

[Bobboau]

Originally posted by Sapphire
Now I've heard it all.   I guess partial birth abortion is a myth, WeatherOp, don'cha know?  So much a myth that Clinton had to veto a bill which would have prevented it earlier.  So much a myth that Pres. Bush finally signed it into law.

he didn't say it didn't exsist, he said it was extreemly rare and that your interpetation of the overwelmingly common implementation of it was inacurate.

in your experience how many women have you met who had this procedure? I haven't met any. and it's understandable it's a far more sereous procedure than a normal abortion, hell a normal abortion is little more than a suped up douche in comparison, and not many people  choose to go into major surgery just for the hell of it. I'm not going to bother posting statistics because you can just as easily find something that suports your side and then we'll get into an unwinable argument about who's stats are bull****, so I'm going to just ask you to rely on what you know from personal experience, I'm so confedent in the rareity of this that do not even consiter the posability that you know someone who had it done unless you actively sought someone out. it's extreemly rare, it's a major surgical procedure, it's only done when it _must_ be done. if you've heard rumors to the contrary, that's exactly what they are, rumors. there exsist people known as pollititions, these people's lively hoods depend on convenceing large numbers of people that there is a problem and that they are the only people who know how to fix it, even if this problem does not truely exsist.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Kazan



because you were lied to - it this doesn't happen

this is a bull**** description of a Intact Dialation and Extraction - which some moron termed "partial birth abortion"

this proceedure only takes place WHEN THE BABY IS ALREADY DEAD IN THE WOMB (from natural causes 90% of the time, and other trauma inflicted on the mother/developing featus the other 10% of the time)


if they don't perform the proceedure to remove the already dead featus the mother dies too

------------------

Wikipedia-ations

Intact dilation and extraction is a surgical technique which can be used for partial-birth abortion or the removal of a dead fetus after a late-term miscarriage, - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intact_dilation_and_extraction

the only time that "brain sucking out thing" happens is A) the featus is already dead and B) it was misformed so that this has to be done so that it can pass through the cervix

needless to say WOMEN DO NOT UNDERGO THIS PROCEDURE LIGHTLY AND NO DOCTOR ADMINISTERS IT LIGHTLY

NB: Kaz, FYI the exact meaning of 'Partial Birth Abortion' in the wikipedia is somewhat inconsistent;  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial-birth_abortion defines it as such
The terms "dilation and extraction" (D&X), "intact dilation and extraction" (IDX or "intact D&X"), "intact dilation and evacuation" (IDE), "intrauterine cranial decompression," "brain suction abortion" and "partial birth feticide" are sometimes used interchangeably with "partial-birth abortion." However, the terms "partial-birth abortion," "brain suction abortion" and "partial birth feticide" only cover procedures which kill a baby; the other terms all cover a range of procedures which include not only partial-birth abortion, but also the removal of a dead fetus following natural miscarriage.
(just in case it's relevant).

I think maybe the UK status part of the (IDX) Wikipedia entry is informative, though;

"Questioned about UK government policy on the issue in Parliament, Baroness Andrews stated that "We are not aware of the procedure referred to as 'partial-birth abortion' being used in Great Britain. It is the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologist's (RCOG) belief that this method of abortion is never used as a primary or pro-active technique and is only ever likely to be performed in unforeseen circumstances in order to reduce maternal mortality or severe morbidity."

[Sapphire]

Originally posted by Bobboau

[Kazan]

No - i'm dimissing your attitude that your personal expirience proves the rule

it does not

[Sapphire]

 

[Kazan]

just because abortion has been abused still doesn't justify outlawing it


a cooking knife can be abused - used to kill someone
a computer can be abused - used to break into other peoples data
a car can be abused
a video camera can be abused

need i go on?

nobody said that it wasn't occasionally abused - but something haven't been abused DOESN'T mean it should be (or can be) outlawed