[Kazan]

Originally posted by Rejindo
You seem to have of spite against religion, Ford and Kaz... can I ask why?

religion is a threat to the survival of our species in the long run

and religion is an immediate threat to my freedom to live how i want

[Ford Prefect]

There is simply no way for evolution at the speed that most evolutionists claim that it takes place at could move from single celled organisms to humanity within the geological age that they insist Earth is.

I don't know how much time you think it would require, but if you think about a million years, then multiply that by a thousand, then by two or three, that is a lot of Monopoly games. The earth was populated by single-celled organisms for far longer than humans have even existed. Evolution was not fast, in any sense of the word. It was, and is, an incredibly slow process, during which there were periods where almost nothing happened for millions of years.

[KappaWing]

Evolution IS real, creationists even agree so - but as Liberator said, the creationists are only saying that there is a higher power, in whatever form you believe that to be, that started it all.

Hmmm... There seem to be a few types of Creationist, those that believe that god set forth evolution as a way of purification and the more extremest ones that believe in the whole 6 days creation story and the fire + Brimstone stuff.

IMO, only people who believe that life started in the form of single-celled organisms without godly interference can truly be deemed Evolutionists. The less extreme creationists are still creationists because they believe that god started it all.

religion is a threat to the survival of our species in the long run

and religion is an immediate threat to my freedom to live how i want

Amen to that! If people keep believing what other people tell them even though no-one has ever collected decent proof themselves, things will eventually lead our society collapsing. Only the strong minded and the non-naive humans can truly hold society together from total insanity. In our world today, however, there are very few of these independent thinkers. The way religion is organized today, people are taught to think in hive minds, (like Shivans), and deny their own individuality and discourage broad and intelligent thinking.

But who knows? Look how sucessful the Shivans ended up being! Maybe hive-minded thinking is the right thing for us humans?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Liberator
Exactly my point Deepblue.  I don't discount that evolution takes place, I just draw a line that when people start ranting about how it is the reason we are all here.  We are here because we are created beings.

There is simply no way for evolution at the speed that most evolutionists claim that it takes place at could move from single celled organisms to humanity within the geological age that they insist Earth is.

Why?

[Ransom]

Originally posted by Kazan


religion is a threat to the survival of our species in the long run

and religion is an immediate threat to my freedom to live how i want

What about the people who want to believe in a religion? Aren't you an immediate threat to their freedom?

Not that I disagree - I also think organised religion is a serious problem, though I don't have any problem with individual religious beliefs - just the 'organised' part. I just find your statement somewhat hypocritical (unless you were talking about organised religion anyway, in which case this post is totally pointless).

[Kazan]

i'm not pushing laws that make an environment hostile to their religion

[Liberator]

I found this enlightening:

Originally posted by Kazan
religion is an immediate threat to my freedom to live how i want

Now, unless you own a private island somewhere that you're not telling us about, you never had that exact freedom.

I know you're thinking

But you are not guaranteed anywhere in the Law that you can live as you want.

While not explicit in it's wording, the Declaration of Independence has this to say about living as you want to:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

You are bastardizing that last part.  You are free to persue you're happiness, within the boundaries of the Law and general social mores.

However what it sounds like you are after, however, is not a land where all people can live freely and strive toward a higher purpose(however they happen to derive it), but a place where sheeple can act like the base creatures you claim we evolved from.

I pray that I am wrong.

[Ace]

Funny how Liberator ignores the part about people like him being a threat to the future of humanity and proceeds to do a holier-than-thou attack

Whee! Timewarp! ...or maybe I can claim it it's prescience and start my own religion of fanatical blade wielding zealots?

[KappaWing]

He never broke any laws, (at least not yet), and living freely and striving for a higher purpose is exactly what he is aiming to do. Living free from the constraints of religious mental-enslavement and seeing through the smokescreen of obscure phophecies and rediculous notions is key to the continuation of our evolution.

a place where sheeple can act like the base creatures you claim we evolved from.

Judging from your approach to this argument, that place which you speak of would be a perfect location for you.

[Liberator]

Originally posted by KappaWing
Judging from your approach to this argument, that place which you speak of would be a perfect location for you.

O_o

Clarify that part please?

All I see is a bunch of hormone driven cretins who don't want responsibility for the results of their actions doing everything they can to fix it so they can rut around like the buck deer in the spring.

Every action has an consequence.  This is true in everything.

If you have sex, you must be willing to accept that it may lead to pregnancy.

Wait...this is about religion, not abortion....dammit:blah:

[Bobboau]

look all I want is the same thing a large number of people in Iran want, not to have to worry about getting taken away in the night for re-education becase we disagree with the national religion.

[WeatherOp]

Originally posted by Kazan


religion is a threat to the survival of our species in the long run

and religion is an immediate threat to my freedom to live how i want

Thats all I'm gonna say.

[Ford Prefect]

The point of that statement in the document is not to assert whether or not there is a creator. The phrase "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights" can be interpreted as meaning that there are rights that all humans want. Now, I'm sure most, if not all, of the founding fathers believed in some sort of god, but the mention of a god-head in that document is still peripheral. The importance of the statement is that it is a boundary against complete relativism, not that it mentions god.

EDIT: I think I may be arguing off the mark here. Sorry if I am; it's late.

[Liberator]

I didn't even quote that to shift the focus to whether the founders believed in God or not.  I was quoting it to reinforce my counterpoint to Kazan's claim that he had a right to live as he want's.

Whether the founder(or framers if you prefer) believed in God or a god is secondary to the main argument of the thread.  The understood that religion played a large role in society during they're time and would remain so for quite some time to come.  They also understood that any group with the kind of power the church(generic) weilded at the time was highly prone to corruption at all levels.  The first ammendment prevents one religious group from making their religion part of the government like Henry VIII did when he created the Anglicans and then use government power to enforce other groups to adhere to their principles.  It does not prevent, however, a congressman or President from leading based on the tenets of their religion.

It has only been in recent(post 1960) times that politicans have had to hide their faith because of groups like the ACLU bastardizing and misinterpreting the intent of the framers to suit their political and social agenda.

[LeGuille]

Funny how the thing that leads the world to desctruction is the very thing that is meant to be salvation for them. And no one can deny that this is true.

[Liberator]

It's lead by men though, and men are inherently prone to corruption, eventually, no matter how pious and good they are.  Yes, most people of faith are decent enough, but it only takes one to stain the all of us for a long time.

Basically, what I'm saying is that preists and pastors and such are put into positions of great influence and it's enough to take the shine off of anyone's ethics if they are not careful to keep themselves grounded in their faith.

[LeGuille]

Yes, but the thing is that religion is another battle ground... the christian crusades, the muslim extremists, many other religions on small polynesian islands that promote sacrafice, death, and gods of destruction... religion is made by man, and man is foolish and imperfect. Who is to say that God is not made by man? Though I believe myself that God is real in my own ways, I know that God is a mental projection of what everyone wants - peace, love, and all that good stuff.

[Kazan]

BTW: the Declairation of Independance, while being an important historical document - is not a legal document within the government of the united states - it predates our government


so quoting from it doesn't support your argument

[Kazan]

Originally posted by Liberator
 It does not prevent, however, a congressman or President from leading based on the tenets of their religion.

It does prohibit them from legislating their religion though - which is what republicans of late have been trying to do

Originally posted by Liberator
It has only been in recent(post 1960) times that politicans have had to hide their faith because of groups like the ACLU bastardizing and misinterpreting the intent of the framers to suit their political and social agenda.

"bastardizing and misinterpreting" in your totalitarian theocratic opinion


the intent of the founding father's is VERY CLEAR and it's supported by other things they wrote to explain to laymen what they were writing in the constitution: religion and government SEPERATE in the united states for all times

100 years after the formation people forgot this, another 100 years later some of us remembered it - we're still fighting to restore the intent of the founding fathers - AND YOU'RE THE ONE FIGHTING AGAINST WHAT AMERICA STANDS FOR


I bring to your intention Article 11 of the Treaty With Tripoli

 Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

treaties are binding at the constitional level - this treaty passed congress UNANIMOUSLY by the very same men who wrote the constitution and ratified the first ten ammendments to the constitution!

[Bobboau]

wether it's legaly binding or not I think the more important thing to note is that it was writen by the founders, therby proveing there position on Church and state.

Originally posted by Liberator
The first ammendment prevents one religious group from making their religion part of the government

thank you, now that's more like it. now get your god the hell out of my government!