[Flipside]

They were a pretty big shock for the kids...

[Deepblue]

*sighs, fills in obigatory answer*

"people kill people."

[01010]

Pfft, we all know it was GTA: San Andreas, Marilyn Manson and Violent movies fault anyway, why worry about the guns.

Personally, I just wish they'd choose a scapegoat (musically) that wasn't that tosser manson, I hate people thinking all people into metal like that ****e.

[WMCoolmon]

Yeah, but think about it. The system right now is to force a bunch of people to go to school, whether they want to or not.. If they really don't want to go, it's probably not going to make much of a difference whether they're there or not. It may or may not be beneficial to them, and they may or may not know that, but most importantly they're being FORCED to go to class, with no other reason other than it's the law.

How would any adult respond if they started having the same restrictions put on them? To spend six or seven hours a day in a room with thirty other people or so, having assignments handed to them that are effectively worthless - except for their educational value. If they're thirty seconds late for a few days, they get punished. They don't receive anything for being there (although the school might). I've heard it said that everything's a learning experience - some things just aren't worth it to learn.
Of course, that's not to mention the hours of homework they'll be receiving. Nope, no rest at home.

There are two ways to do well in school. 1) Miraculously be exactly the type of person who works well in that system or 2) conform. Considering the diversity of people, one is unlikely. That leaves two. And now the school's forcing people to change themselves for...what? Not learning. School isn't about learning, or else it wouldn't be mandatory - people would want to go! What way do people have to get their grievances addressed? Absolutely no way at all, unless they can enlist the help of an adult. Because they are, in the eyes of the law, considered inherently inferior to every single last person over the age of 18.

Considering all that, it really isn't all surprising that some of those subhumans blow up and lose control.

[Flipside]

Manson is a strange person, but a surprisingly intelligent one when I saw an interview with him.

That said, I don't like him musically, and he looks..... Micheal Jackson, but fortunately he doesn't give the impression of thinking Micheal Jackson

[Flipside]

Sorry, had to reply to WMCoolman's post there.....

Thing is, adults are, if they want any quality of life, forced to work and obey the company rules and policies. The guy that forces you to go to school... Don't you think he'd rather be in Bermuda supping down a Pina Colada?

I can't speak for the discipline in your school, but a certain expression of Freedom is important. I suppose where I work, I draw the line when that Freedom to Express becomes a disruption to other student's Freedom to Peace and Quiet, as it were

Personally, I think they pick precisesly the wrong time to get kids to do the most important exams of their life. Right in the middle of Puberty, where your Future is the least of your concerns. I think children should be starting to learn languages and humanities at around the age of 5-6 years old, younger if possible.

[Deepblue]

The kid was a neonazi anyway...

[Flipside]

Well, I don't think it's what he believed that is really the issue, so much as why he believed that. He could have just been a complete nutcase, but if that's the case, why wasn't he identified and dealt with before this happened?  It could have been home issues, but once again, the impetus has been lumped on schools to identify and deal with that.

If you ask me, the danger here is the moving of repsonsiblity for children from the parents to the state. Parents will imply stricter morals on a Child than a State will, they won't be so hung up on 'Freedom' and a lot more on 'What Mrs Gable at 34 will say'.

Is that a bad thing? Who's to say. I suppose if the state were to withdraw, and simply supports and ensures Freedom is upheld, and allow the Public more control over it's own society-driven form of ethics, but if people want to rebel against it, it doesn't suddenly fall on the School or the State's shoulders.

[Windrunner]

first time i've seen this many quotes in one single thread

[WMCoolmon]

Not true. Once you turn 18, you can go ahead and live in a cardboard box if you want to. If you're lucky, it can even be bechfront property - although you may be limited by beach hours (And the wherabouts of dumpsters ). You do gain something out of work - the money you earn.

Here's the thing - at 18, there is no magical change in brain chemistry that happens as you blow the candles out on your birthday cake. The concept of independence and self-sovereignty may seem much more real then, but likely you'll still be able to understand them before that.

If someone's dream job since the age of 12 is to be a stock marketeer, and the school requires two semesters of a drama class, which they have absolutely no talent in, for those two semesters they'll have to go to that drama class. The best they could do is try to cut a deal with the school administration. If the university they want to go to requires two semesters of drama for economics majors, then they can choose not to go to it - although they'll either have to give up their dream job or find some other way of achieving it.

[Flipside]

It's interesting to see it from the 'other side', I can't give an example for the US, but I come up against this quite a lot at work

My situation is a little different, since I work for a Training Provider, which does Apprenticeships, and tends to mostly get people who have not done as well at school as they hoped.

However, it's an interesting fact to note that in the last 3 months, the company I work for has paid out over £80,000 in computer Hardware, software, paper, pens, books, Exam fees, College registrations, wages, Salon maintenance fees etc etc etc.

I suppose the 'Adult' in me would say that the Education is your payment. Though, I am still young enough to know that would fall on deaf ears if I were 18.

As I say, the pick they one time of your life when you least want to conform, when you most want to express your originality, and believe me, it doesn't stop at 18, but your 'comfiness' with who you are increases, with any luck, so it's not so important to shout it from the roof

As far as doing Drama for Economics, I've never understood that kind of thing. My brother is the best Mental Arithmetist I know, and he's Dyslexic, so he'll never get the English qualification he'd need to do a job in accounts

[Swamp_Thing]

Originally posted by aldo_14
I'm not sure about that 2 seconds part; at least by the (pre-ban) Uk standards, where you had to keep guns in a metal locked safe.  

Let´s not split hairs here. I´m not talking of a 5 inch wall safe, made of titanium alloy, with 3 sets of number wheels, complete with minefield, infra-red cameras and guard dogs. I´m talking about keeping your handgun inside a locked drawer, in your night stand, next to your bed. How long does it take to insert key, turn, open, and go balistic?
The same goes for long guns. Keep then inside your closet. How long does it take to get it? Get up, walk to the closet, insert key, turn, open, and go balistic. Even if you don´t keep it locked, you still have to perform most of these actions to reach it anyway...

Note that i think the UK laws are a bit overdrive. Unless you own several guns, there is no reason to keep so many safeguards, that would completelly nullify the purpose of self-defense. But if you own several weapons, then yes. Keep all of them but one under strict lock, and keep your handgun closer at hand. But still under locked key, mind you. Just not inside a home made Fort Knox.

[Scuddie]

Originally posted by Swamp_Thing
Note that i think the UK laws are a bit overdrive.

Dont you think that's a bit of an understatement?  For christs sake, in the UK, an armed robber can raid your house, and hold you hostage.  But if the said robber lets his guard down for some reason (distracted or something), and you attack him with a baseball bat to disable him, then call the cops, he can sue you for everything you're worth.

To fix your statement, "Note that the UK laws are downright ****ed up."

[Clave]

They have said you can use 'reasonable force' so those stupid burglar suing householder cases are going to go away.  What you must NOT do, is shoot them in the back when they are running away...

[aldo_14]

... and in total, IIRc, there have only been about 6 prosecutions in the last decade+ for that.  It's extraordinarily rare.

@Swampy
It's a moot point, because all gun ownership is illegal - IIRc you can only own under .22 weapons, and they must be kept at a registered gun club with security.  But, we don't need guns at home, really.... gun crime is really rare in Scotland in particular, and I can't remember ever hearing of a guns use in a 'casual' crime (robbery, mugging)  since they were banned (only in a very few isolated incidents, mostly gangland killings or 'hits').

Having checked up, in fact, it dropped by half in 1992-2002 (guns were banned in 1997), and by something like 9% alone in 2000-2002 (probably more relevant RE: the ban).  So it's certainly not 'hurt' by banning weapons.

Incidentally, there's now a growing groundswell of opinion to further restrict or even ban the ownership of airguns after the death of a 2 year old shot with one.

[Janos]

Originally posted by aldo_14
.

Incidentally, there's now a growing groundswell of opinion to further restrict or even ban the ownership of airguns after the death of a 2 year old shot with one.

uhhh
That's not really nice. The death is sad, but the fact that even they should be banned is really weird. Slippery slope indeed.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Janos


uhhh
That's not really nice. The death is sad, but the fact that even they should be banned is really weird. Slippery slope indeed.

Well, there's almost definately going to be a tightening of restrictions & increasing of age limits if not a total ban; the reason is that an increasing number of emergency workers are finding themselves being attacked by them (and sometimes being drawn out on false alarm calls for that purpose*).  The police have called for a ban, though.

Links;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4319149.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4322109.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4374777.stm

*Scotlands not a bad country or an urban wasteland or anything like that  - but we're the same as everyone else, we have a bunch of right scum who do stuff like this.