[Stealth]

Originally posted by Deepblue

So tell me, how do you know?

are you that naive?  do you think this is one big conspiracy, and that actually Terri's perfectly conscious, trapped inside a body where she can't communicate or move, but in the future there WILL be a way to cure her?

Get a grip man.  do you think that in FIFTEEN YEARS no one's run any tests on her?  that the doctors all look at her and say "oh yeah.  she's a vegetable, her brain's mush".

don't believe everything you read on the internet, because in the end it's you that looks like an idiot when you quote it.

[Flipside]

Actually Stealth, other than some incredibly broad generalisation, we don't have much of a clue how a very large percentage of the Human Brain works. Pain comes from the middle of your brain, not the cortex.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Flipside
Actually Stealth, other than some incredibly broad generalisation, we don't have much of a clue how a very large percentage of the Human Brain works. Pain comes from the middle of your brain, not the cortex.

Actually, tests have indicated that patients with no cerebral cortex (which is responsible for receiving sensory information and motor control, incidentally) don't feel pain; http://www.biopsychiatry.com/gaba/pain.html

The cerebral cortex, as I understand it, is responsible for the transmission of pain messages; the frontal cortex (corticles?  I forget the term) are responsible for the processing and reaction of it (hence why they have activity there).

[TrashMan]

The cantral issus are these:

- what do you thnik and normal individual (maby you too:D) would want in those conditions? I know I would want to die.

- is there hope of recovery?

- will she die painlessly?

[.::Tin Can::.]

From what I heard and read, a nobel prize winning neurologist said that with therapy she could come out of it. Also, people who have been in worse condition have come out of this sort of situation.

What I dont understand is how cases like this get so much attention. Worse things happen every day that never get as covered as the insignificant things like these.

[Stealth]

Originally posted by Flipside
Actually Stealth, other than some incredibly broad generalisation, we don't have much of a clue how a very large percentage of the Human Brain works. Pain comes from the middle of your brain, not the cortex.

note what i said 2 posts up please:

OK....the cerebral cortex (in Terri's case: what's turned to mush) controls all higher level mental functions. Breathing, heartbeat, etc. is controlled by the medulla, which is at the top of the spinal chord (note: completely different part from the cerebral cortex).

and

it's the hypothalamus that's responsible for processing pain, which may/may not be still functioning in Terri's case, i don't know.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by .::Tin Can::.
From what I heard and read, a nobel prize winning neurologist said that with therapy she could come out of it. Also, people who have been in worse condition have come out of this sort of situation.

What I dont understand is how cases like this get so much attention. Worse things happen every day that never get as covered as the insignificant things like these.

That's incorrect RE: recovery. Particularly concerning long-term PVS; the BMA (British Medical Association) belives that cases of 'recovery' have been due to original misdiagnosis.  It also recommends that a period of 1 year expire before the diagnosis of irreversible PVS confirmed.

See http://www.bma.org.uk/ap.nsf/Content/pvs?OpenDocument&Highlight=2,PVS

The doctor who said Terry Schiavo could be cured through therapy is, i presume, Dr. William Hammesfahr.  Firstly, he's not a winner but a nominee (odd statement in itself, as nominee names are kept secret for at least 50 years from both the public and nominees).   My understanding is that RE: the Nobel prize, his name was simply put forward.   And his name was apparently put forward by a republican congressman, which doesn't qualify under nobel rules (has to be by someone within the same field, i.e. another doctor, etc).

The doctor was also fined and censured by the Florida medical board for taking $2000 off a patient without performing any therapy (this was in 2003); the board also rule his treatment of stroke victims was "not within the generally accepted standard of care", although some did improve.  He's also provided no evidence (videos, case studies) that he has actually treated patients worse off than Terri Schiavo - in short, his credits are far from impeccable.

As an aside, RE: the nurse  who alleged that insulin was found near Terry Schiavo.  A judge dismissed her (and another nurses) testimony as 'incredible' (it featured descriptions of Terris activities and responses, and was completely without co-oberative medical evidence), and ordered the family not use it due to that.   In other words, they are groundless claims.

[Drew]

The Republicans assulted the Constitution to save this woman. So much for their reputation as the "Party of small government and states Rights"

http://www.lewrockwell.com/hornberger/hornberger33.html

[Liberator]

assaulted the Constitution?

Oh I get it!  It okay if some unaccountable prick in a black robe with a hammer dick's around with our rights, but when the people who we actually give power to do something, they are "fascists" and "teh ev1l!

[IceFire]

Originally posted by .::Tin Can::.
From what I heard and read, a nobel prize winning neurologist said that with therapy she could come out of it. Also, people who have been in worse condition have come out of this sort of situation.

What I dont understand is how cases like this get so much attention. Worse things happen every day that never get as covered as the insignificant things like these.

Really?  Because the MRI's were saying that large sections of her brain were dead and filled with spinal fluid.  Far as I know, you don't recover those areas.

I know the brain can re-wire itself and sometimes recover but apparently not from damage like this.  And then what is recovery really?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Liberator
assaulted the Constitution?

Oh I get it!  It okay if some unaccountable prick in a black robe with a hammer dick's around with our rights, but when the people who we actually give power to do something, they are "fascists" and "teh ev1l!

Overidding the legal system in order to force a certain resolution to an issue, upon a specifically named and targeted individual or group... I'd say that's a dangerous precedent.

IIRC the courts have ruled the attempts to change the law unconstitutional, but you don't accept that because...why?  You don't agree with them?

'The unnaccountable prick in a black robe' is a sacred part of any democratic, free country - the independent judiciary, the people who have to stand outside policitcal influence and interpret the law.   You want to stop them, override them in this case?  Fine, do it.  Keep doing it.  And then watch when the pretence of the rights you think that has given you, is shattered.

[StratComm]

It never ceases to amaze me how many of my countrymen actually believe the "activist judges" garbage being spouted by the current administration.  As aldo said, the independent Judiciary is vital to a stable democracy; it's judges who aren't afraid to nullify a law on the grounds that it conflicts with constitutonal rights who protect us from abuses of power by the legislature/executive, not the other way around.

And besides, the case in question has nothing to do with Terri Schiavo at this point, when it comes down to it.  It's a battle over how many times you can appeal a court's decision that you don't like, regardless of why the ruling was made in the first place.  Sleezeball or not, without a living will her husband is the final word on her medical care, period.  Every court that has heard the case has come to the same conclusion; that really should tell you something about the validity of the claims.

[Stealth]

point is:  she's not going to recover.  there has never to date been a case of anyone recovering fully with even half the cortex damage she has.  her cerebral cortex is gone.  humans can't rebuild it, and it can't rebuild itself.  she'a a goner.

[Drew]

Originally posted by Liberator
assaulted the Constitution?

Oh I get it!  It okay if some unaccountable prick in a black robe with a hammer dick's around with our rights, but when the people who we actually give power to do something, they are "fascists" and "teh ev1l!

The Constitution created one of the best forms of government ever devised by man.  The government is meant to be at its own heels,  to prevent Federal power from interfering with individuals lives. Giving the Federal government the power to rule directly over an individual, even for a righteous cause, is a dangerous overstep in power.  The fact is, this is one of the few cases in recent years that the judges are doing their Constitutional duty. The Founders were collectivly more educated in the ways of government than probably anyone we know. The Constitution was meant to protect the individual; in order to do so, it must stay intact.

[NGTM-1R]

Originally posted by aldo_14

'The unnaccountable prick in a black robe' is a sacred part of any democratic, free country - the independent judiciary, the people who have to stand outside policitcal influence and interpret the law.

You don't really believe that, do you?

Nevertheless, this is too far. They had a shot, these Republicans, but like the ACLU and other organizations before them, they reached too far and now people are going to turn on them.

[Flipside]

Impartiality is important in Law. That is what the scales and the blindfold are for.

It's one of the hardest things to do, which is probably why it was one of the first.

[Deepblue]

@Lib, checks and balances are good. However, this still does not erase the fact that what they are doing to her is doing harm and is cruel and unusual. It's basically state-sanctioned murder. At best it's state-santioned suicide.

[Flipside]

My Mother had to order my Grandad's Life Support turned off last year, his condition was nothing like this, he had collapsed 2 days before hand, and everything just shut down, it's a horrible decision to have to make, but when it gets ugly like this, it's all the more terrible.

I would not have liked to be the surgeon who detached that tube. Did I read earlier that this man had been given money in a medical malpractice case to use to keep her alive though? So she isn't actually draining public funds?

[Saturn2004]

well im speechless ...lol
i   have nothin to say except that the latest is the US Supreme Court has  denied  her  the  right to stay on the  feeding  tube
im sorry to say that deepblue
but thats the  truth

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by ngtm1r


You don't really believe that, do you?

Nevertheless, this is too far. They had a shot, these Republicans, but like the ACLU and other organizations before them, they reached too far and now people are going to turn on them.

Yes.  How can a free country exist with political control over the judiciary?  One of the first things most dictatorial governments do, is remove independent judges and install more amenable ones - surely that indicates something about the role of the law in enforcing freedom and democracy?

Originally posted by Flipside
My Mother had to order my Grandad's Life Support turned off last year, his condition was nothing like this, he had collapsed 2 days before hand, and everything just shut down, it's a horrible decision to have to make, but when it gets ugly like this, it's all the more terrible.

I would not have liked to be the surgeon who detached that tube. Did I read earlier that this man had been given money in a medical malpractice case to use to keep her alive though? So she isn't actually draining public funds?

I think the money has suposedly run out... but I don't think much or any public money goes towards public healthcare in the US anyways.  

One of my cousins works in a hospital in Texas (he moved their with his American wife last year); we got a brochure - the hospitals are far better furnished than NHS ones, but the costs are enourmous - IIRC the deposit for treatment on a serious illness is $15k, and private rooms run at the cost of $1k a day.

On the general subject... my grandad died over quite a long time with liver failure.  Whilst euthanasia was never even thought of (he wasn't on a respirator or anything, so you'd be talking murder, and it's just not something you think about where there is still forlorn hope), I still felt almost glad in a way when he died, because of the way he had been suffering and deteriorating.  Before the end - and this is not a joke - he looked like a yellow (renal failure) gollum.  So I'm in favour of euthanasia, or simply withdrawing treatment, if someone is suffering without hope of recovery.