[aldo_14]

Not amongst the independently appointed court doctors, AFAIK.  All 6 agreed upon the PVS diagnosis.  

The viewpoint of the doctors hired by either Michael Schiavo or Terri's family is pretty much irrelevant, because their association with either side raises questions over their neutrality.

Unfortunately, that is arguably applicable to every doctor cited outside of the court appointed ones, now; as it is plausible they will be selected because of a presupposition of what they will say, in order to prove a point.  

Which is why i would stick with the medical opinions of the court appointed doctors, who are the only ones who are approached - i.e. whose opinions are sought - under the intent of complete neutrality.

Regardless, my point is; Jesse Jacksons' opinion is no more valid than yours or mine.  So any visit he made, isn't really relevant towards this thread or debate, because it doesn't add anything beyond another opinion.

[Stealth]

i thought this was amusing... on "terrisfight.org"

"She's not physically ill, other than being brain damaged," Wagner told WPTF reporter Sarina Fazan.

that's a nurse that used to work at the hospice

has anyone disputed this whole time that she wasn't physically ill?

[Stealth]

cause what i heard was the majority of the court-appointed doctors said she was a vegetable...

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Stealth
cause what i heard was the majority of the court-appointed doctors said she was a vegetable...

All of them concluded that AFAIK.

[Stealth]

ahh ok. i wasn't 100% sure

[adwight]

Then they just need to let her die.  She has no purpose anymore on this earth, I'm not trying to sound like a bastard, but they just need to let her pass on.  I already told my family that if I ever turn like that, to pull the plug on me because it wouldn't be worth it.

[Deepblue]

Too bad, you do sound like one.

[Ford Prefect]

Jesse Jackson (whoa) visited her and thinks she should live...

Well that settles it. We have to do the opposite of whatever that man says.

[Rictor]

Deepblue, have you even entertained the option that for some people, death might be better than life? People have commited suicide for less (say, life in prison). Without even getting into the specifcs here, can you admit that there might be some merits to a mercy kill?

Originally posted by ngtm1r


Much as you may say it Trashman, in the event I doubt you would actually go through with it. Even in places where euthanasia is legal, the vast majority of terminally ill or badly crippled people do not opt for that route. This reflects a basic biological drive to go on living, regardless of circumstances. Even in horrible pain, a dog or cat never kills itself. Nor a dolphin or a sparrow.

Those who lose such a basic instinct worry us of the majority. They appear a dangerous aberration which must be controlled. Perhaps they are. Perhaps not. But that, not religon, is why your amendment will not pass. Religon merely cloaks the more fundemental reason.

First of all, AFAIK a dog or cat is physically incapable of killing itself. Think of the ways you can commit suicide. Then take away all those that involve opposable thumbs or higher intellect (such as drowning yourself, or jumping off a bridge). See what I mean?

And you have some nerve to call people who would choose death in such a circumstance an abberation. And what's more, they must be controlled. Seems to me like thats the very basic freedom: the freedom to with your own life what you will. Yes, survival instinct is a very fundamental force in human nature, but we also have that which other animals do not: dislike of discomfort and helplessness, and the conscious recognition that we are capable of ending our own suffering. Balance the pros and cons of continued living (assuming you were badly crippled or somesuch) and I don't find it at all stange that some people might simply feel that its not worth it. What exactly does Terry Shcaivo have to gain by living? Is there a real hope of recovery? It is unfortunate that she cannot communicate her thoughts on the matter, I'm sure it would be easier for everyone if she was conscious, but that's life.

What amazes me is that you seem to be advocating a ban on euthansia, even when the person is fully conscious and aware of their situation. You are in effect telling me: you do not control your own life, the State does. How exactly does that mesh with personal freedom?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Deepblue
Too bad, you do sound like one.

Don't resort to insulting people; it makes your arguements sound even more unfounded.

[Swamp_Thing]

Originally posted by Stealth

yeah, but you see, unlike humans, a dog, cat, dolphin, or sparrow lack the intellect of a human.  they can't inject themselves with an overdose of morphine, etc. they most likely don't have the ability to think "wait, i'm in extreme pain, let me find a way to end my life"

don't try to correlate the life of an animal, to the life of a human.

Actually, animals are also capable of self termination. A lion for ex, when is sick or incapacitated, will move away from the group and die alone. If he remained with the group, they would still share the food with him, so he could survive even though he can´t hunt for himself. By moving away, he is signing his own death warrant.
Lemingues commit mass suicide, allthough no one know why yet. Some think it has to do with excess population.
An octopuss will eat his own body to feed itself while he maintains vigil of its offspring. Many times they eat themselfs to death.
Elephants are believed to commit suicide by throwing themselfs off a cliff. Many mass graveyards were found in Africa. Evidence discovered examining the bones showed many of those animals were sick, or old. Maybe they knew their time had come.

The point being that claiming "animals don´t kill themselfs, so we shouldn´t either" is totally wrong. It is in the nature of all livings things to try to survive, but it is also in their nature to instintivelly know when their time has come and when to stop fighting for survival. Survival at all costs doesn´t exist.

[aldo_14]

NB: Lemmings don't commit mass suicide.  That was just made up (the footage was staged) for a Disney (IIRC) documentary.

However, it's probably impossible to compare animal behaviour to humans, anyways; we simply don't know enough about it, and there may be an entirely different perception of pain an memory.  There are also base survival instincts which humans either don't have, or don't have to that degree....  basically, we don't have the ability to understand completely when animal behaviour is intentional.

Oh, and (apparently - not found a definitive source for this yet, though) primates have been observed to commit suicide by starving themselves.

[Swamp_Thing]

Originally posted by aldo_14
NB: Lemmings don't commit mass suicide.  That was just made up (the footage was staged) for a Disney (IIRC) documentary.

Sorry, don´t know what you are on about. Never saw such a thing as a "Disney documentary". I thought they only made cartoons and children´s movies.  
I saw it in National Geographic, btw. A similar occurrence took place with penguins, in the Arctic.

Originally posted by aldo_14

Oh, and (apparently - not found a definitive source for this yet, though) primates have been observed to commit suicide by starving themselves.

Wouldn´t be at all strange. Birds do it when they are caged. It´s as if they feel depressed, and choose to end it. Maccaws peck their feathers out because of depression, and freeze to death. Some parrots  were observed pecking their own flesh off their bones, after being caged. I see a paralel with humans commiting suicide after being thrown in jail. Guantanamo is infamous because of it.
Other theories could explain that whales and dolphins beach themselfs to die, aswell. The theory that they somehow lost their bearings doesn´t make much sense. Whales migrate half across the world, and never miss their destinations, and all of a sudden they loose their bearings? I don´t buy it. I think (personnal opinion here) that they do it when they are sick, old, or lose the parents for some japanese whaler boat or something. It´s just that no one wants to admit that whales are that inteligent and behave so much like us. Whales also die in captivity very often. Again depression is a likely explanation, since food and other needs are met just as if they were free. So it has to be an emotional problem, since physically they are under the same conditions as they would be at sea.

[vyper]

Lemmings don't top themselves, just accept it right now.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Swamp_Thing


Sorry, don´t know what you are on about. Never saw such a thing as a "Disney documentary". I thought they only made cartoons and children´s movies.  
I saw it in National Geographic, btw. A similar occurrence took place with penguins, in the Arctic.



Wouldn´t be at all strange. Birds do it when they are caged. It´s as if they feel depressed, and choose to end it. Maccaws peck their feathers out because of depression, and freeze to death. Some parrots  were observed pecking their own flesh off their bones, after being caged. I see a paralel with humans commiting suicide after being thrown in jail. Guantanamo is infamous because of it.
Other theories could explain that whales and dolphins beach themselfs to die, aswell. The theory that they somehow lost their bearings doesn´t make much sense. Whales migrate half across the world, and never miss their destinations, and all of a sudden they loose their bearings? I don´t buy it. I think (personnal opinion here) that they do it when they are sick, old, or lose the parents for some japanese whaler boat or something. It´s just that no one wants to admit that whales are that inteligent and behave so much like us. Whales also die in captivity very often. Again depression is a likely explanation, since food and other needs are met just as if they were free. So it has to be an emotional problem, since physically they are under the same conditions as they would be at sea.

The problem is, that what you;ve described can't be proven as suicide.  Now, the Lemmings thing is established as false; the footage used to 'prove' it was in a Disney (1958) documentary called 'White Wilderness', where they filmed the Lemmings being shepherded off a cliff; subsequent repeats have continued the myth.

Birds... there's not a way to tell if pecking is with the intent of suicide or simply due to boredom (for example, leading to over-grooming) or conditions leeding to mental defect.

Whales and dolphins beaching - there is no evidence that this is suicide; particularly as entire pods have been observed to do so.  There are IIRC a number of theories, for example due to sonar or shipping affecting the whales natural echolocation.

Point is, we don't know this behaviour is suicide.  It is unproven, and possibly unproveable; so applying that as reasoning behind human behaviour is quiestionable in itself.  The secondary issue is that humans are not equateable with animals; we can't justify human nature based on animal nature, any more than - for example - we can explain kangeroo behaviour with the actions of dogs.

By the same context, dismissing suicide as unnatural is invalid, too.

[Stealth]

Originally posted by Swamp_Thing
Whales migrate half across the world, and never miss their destinations, and all of a sudden they loose their bearings? I don´t buy it. I think (personnal opinion here) that they do it when they are sick, old, or lose the parents for some japanese whaler boat or something.

a little offtopic here, but i thought that wales 'migration' has something to do with the moon, or tide patterns or something, and that they can be thrown off.

[aldo_14]

I think whale migration has been linked to oceanic currents or the Earths magnetic field, but I'm not sure.

[Swamp_Thing]

The issue was not whale migration, it was whales beaching themselfs and die.

EDIT:
Oh, i forgot to add, Terri´s parents have managed to get another appeal in. I wonder when will they give up, and just let her go.
Becausse she is already more dead than alive. Her kidneys and intestines failed, her liver will be next, if they suddenly decided to reinsert the tube she would die just the same. So why bother?

[Stealth]

the Earths magnetic field

yeah that's it.  those are the words i was looking for

[Stealth]

oh . hehehe worth mentioning:

I was playing WC3 yesterday, and this guy had registered the name: "TeRrIsCHiAvo"... and he'd join games, and the whole game he'd say, every few seconds "OMG HUNGER!!!!!111" and "FEED ME, I NEED A CHEESEBURGER" and stuff like that.

heh. it's amazing how much time people have on their hands