Author Topic: Space games  (Read 3796 times)

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Offline WMCoolmon

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Offline Flipside

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Well, I've always said, if you are going to have big ships, make them part of the terrain, rather than simply scenery, have pipes you can duck under, buildings/towers you can flip sideways and skim between, corridors you can fly through etc. I'd love to have a battle around a station where the station plays more of a role than simply 'decoration'.

 

Offline Inquisitor

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Offline Flipside

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Yep sort of, but with elements of the Death Star reactor/surface run thrown in, I love the exhilleration of that scene, trying to shake off fighters that are behind you by outflying them and forcing them to crash into the structures etc ;)

 
Flipside makes a great point, there. But collisions would have to be handled better than in FS2.
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Offline Cobra

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Offline Bobboau

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I have had consiterations on posable ways to improve at least the look of large objects, one idea I had was to have geometry built into the BSP tree so at each node you could add more detail, but I couldn't think of a good way to get model formats to work for it.
if FSO had improved physics, and an AI prone to skimming the surface of large objects (rather than crashing into them at full speed) I think things could get more interesting.
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The biggest problem with space-sims, IMHO, is exactly the same problem as was in way old school NES and SNES era RPGs.  The pallette swap.

Now, I consider Freespace 2 the absolute god of space sims - but in essence, it really only has 4 (maybe 2) weapon types, of which 2 (maybe 1) are available to the player.

It has bolt-type weapons (blob cannons and every primarily a player has access to) which simply shoot a projectile straight.  Missile type weapons, which are in essence bolt weapons which home in.   Flak weapons, which are in essence bolt weapons which burst and do area affects at a certain range.  And beam weapons, which even I can't catergorize as a version of bolt weapons.

Take you're average FPS.  A pistol and a shotgun may be very similar, but in practice, they're used very differently.  As is a sniper rifle and an SMG.  Space sims in general, though, limit you to primaries (and even in freespace 2, all primaries are essentially the same weapon with slightly more damage when you hit, like an old school NES imp vs.  Red Imp).  They're more damaging versions of the same weapon which are used exactly the same way.


Same sims could learn a lot from Descent in this manner.  The three way cannon didn't function like the gatling cannon - you had to adapt techniques to use the two of them.  Three way was best close up, gatling made for excellent long range attacks because of it's essentially instant hit velocity - but you had to use control cause it knocked enemies around too.  And the charge up plasma cannon behaved differently.  Whatever weapon you had on, you altered your tactics to fit that weapon.  FS2 - well, I'd rathed have kayser then a subach, but when you get right down to it, kayser or subach, I'm using exactly the same attack patterns and techniques to get it to hit.

Give me wave motion cannons, ballistic cannons that hit instantly but knock your enemy around.  TIE-fighter style tractor beams.  Make the mauler device from MOO2 a weapon, very very wide "No need to aim" but eats energy like a mofo and has a short range.  Give me energy torpedos and missiles, weapons which travel in large conic sections, seekers, non-seekers, feignters, special purpose weapons.  But make me THINK before I shoot.  A kayser isn't a subach, and I shouldn't be able to say "Kayser, subach, Prometheus-S, Prometheus-R, they're all exactly the same".  Give me spread guns and flamethrowers and laser and crush weapons and make me feel like my super laser isn't a palette swap of my stupid useless laser.   And I'll buy your game.


But, then, if we're talking really far out.  Give me that.  Then let me dock with other ships, and take them over Buck Rogers: Countdown to doomsday style.  In a pure FPS doom 3 game.  Give me Mechwarrior: Mercs customizability but the living economy of X2: The  threat.   Let me get a combat mission at every space port if I want to, or make a fortune trading space-crack to aliens.  Give me a deep plot, money AND a barter system, slave trading if I'm feeling real evil, research and development if I set up a base.  Let me hire engineers to modify my weapons, and develop them to where they can use 14 different modules to make my laser to a super laser, but also let me hire researchers to create the new superweapon.

Give me a hot alien chick to romance and wierd aliens to talk with or blow up if I feel like.  Let me disembark and explore alien ruins for schematics for the matter wave disruptor, mark 14, then let me trader if for 14 heavy lasers and a nubile young maiden.

Give me the best of Master of Orion 2, Doom 3, Freespace 2, Mechwarrior Mercenaries, Metroid Prime, Star Control 2  and Planescape:torment and I'll buy your game.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2005, 05:59:38 am by 2338 »

 

Offline Flipside

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Problem is that if you get too deeply involved with the 'universe' you'll end up with BC3000AD, jack of all trades, master of none. Computers aren't 'quite' up to that level yet, it was like when I started that discussion about trading games, the trick is getting people to think a lot more is going on than really is ;)

As far as the skimming over surfaces of ships is concerned, can I just add that a Perseus travelling at 120m/s (500+ kph), when colliding with a capital ship should not, in my opinion, go doiiing!

 

Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by phatosealpha
Give me the best of Master of Orion 2, Doom 3, Freespace 2, Mechwarrior Mercenaries, Metroid Prime, Star Control 2  and Planescape:torment and I'll buy your game.


Why have I got a horrible feeling that someone said that to Derek Smart once and BattleCruiser Millenium was the result? :p

Flipside is correct. It's going to be very hard to do all that in any reasonable time frame. Either you end up with a game which is completely obsolete as soon as it come out or you rush and end up with BC3000AD.


Personally I'd aim a little lower. A lot of people are going for I-War EOC or Freelancer style open universes. I agree wholeheartedly on that. I want an open universe where anything can happen at any time.
Don't make the mistake both of the above games made though.

1) Never force the player to trade or be a merc. First time through the game I want to complete the game. Not spend ages improving my reputation/elite rating/bank balance just so I can play the next mission. And who ever came up with the Freelancer "You must be level 20 to purchase this weapon" needs shooting. It's ridiculous that someone with millions in the bank can't buy a weapon just because of some arbitrary rank.

2) Don't make the universe revolve around the player. If instead of taking that urgent mission I decide to swan around gas mining the universe should have moved on by the time I get back. Both EOC and Freelancer suffered from this although Freelance did eventually reach a point where you had no choice but to play the critical missions.

3) Respect the fact that your customers have a life. What pissed me off about EOC to the point where I stopped playing it and what was a major annoyance in Freelancer was the fact that an enormous amount of playing time was spent simply travelling from A to B. In the final mission of EOC I played I would spend 9 minutes travelling to a destination only to get blown up 30 seconds after the action started. After this happened the 6th time I actually timed it, decided that I'd wasted an entire hour of my life doing nothing but travelling from A to B and promptly uninstalled the game.
 The words great game and mind numbing tedium do NOT go together in my mind :D If it's getting to the point where the player is picking up a magazine during the travelling sections then you need to include a time advance function (don't make it manual either! It should automatically take you from the second that you click auto-pilot and then drop you back into the game [with an optional pause screen telling you where you are and why the autopilot is cancelling] as soon as the action starts).
 Same goes for forcing the player to watch the same cutscenes over and over again before every launch. Allow the player to turn a cutscene off after he's seen it a definable number of times.

4) If only I can save mankind why aren't you helping? If the Imperial Navy/rich benifactor/pirate leader thinks you're the only man for the job make sure that the player isn't being sent out in a ricketty old fighter held together with duct tape and chewing gum. If the player isn't in the military then he should be given everything that it is possible to give him for that mission. Of course the employer could demand it back after the mission is over. If the game is set in a military enviroment then it's a little more forgivable but still rather odd to see an entire task force do nothing while 3 wings fly of to battle the ancient evil. Freelancer actually got this one largely correct. The Order sell your their top fighter at an incredibly cheap price simply because they need you.

5) Let the player be evil..... If the player wants to slave trade, cary out piracy, blow up friendly stations let him. There are much better ways of handling the problem than the indestrutable stations we see in other games. If after the game has finished the player decides he personally wants to visit every star system in the game and destroy every single space station let him try.

6) ...but with great power comes great responsibility If I do decide to be evil I should pay a permanent price. None of that pay $1000 credits and we'll forget about multiple murders. Minor infractions should require a fine yes. All stations could order ships to put there safeties on when approaching so that the accidental "whoops I fired a nuke at you" defence can't be used.
 If I blow up a station in a system then news about me being wanted should spread outwards at the speed at which information moves in the game.
Piracy should be possible but make it so that if someone does get away you're in big trouble. Good jamming equipment should be a must for any pirate. It also shouldn't be a matter of just walking into the store on any planet to pick it up.
 It should be possible to gain a full pardon only if I do something very heroic. Otherwise the only way out is to visit the cloners on Rigel 7 and get myself tranfered into a new body. Of course I may find that my new identiy can't access all my old bank accounts (even if they haven't already be frozen!).

7) Make it moddable I think that FRED is the main reason the community is still here. Without it most of us would probably have packed up and left years ago because we'd have played all the missions enough time to need a break. Make sure the modding system is as simple to use as can be and that it comes with good instructions. I don't have time to write you a FAQ too :p
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Offline Flipside

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Can I just add to that :-

One thing that winds me up is the idea that in the Future pirates will carry little identifiers onboard so that traders can know they are pirates and IFF them as such before they fire a single shot. Certainly, for known pirate groups etc, that's fine, but in the case of a freelancer, you shouldn't know their intent towards you until they display it.

 

Offline Ace

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Everyone here seems to be focusing on combat or trading space sims.

To test the waters a bit:

How would you feel about an action-adventure spacesim? Like Star Controll II or Lightspeed?

The player is in control of a self-sufficient starship (like the Mothership in Homeworld) and explores say an accurately modeled globular cluster.

It would be overall a sandbox game, with factions that you can interact with.
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Flipside
Can I just add to that :-

One thing that winds me up is the idea that in the Future pirates will carry little identifiers onboard so that traders can know they are pirates and IFF them as such before they fire a single shot. Certainly, for known pirate groups etc, that's fine, but in the case of a freelancer, you shouldn't know their intent towards you until they display it.


I think that's a case of gameplay over realism... although whether anyone developer has actually considered that ambiguity as an option is an interesting question.

  
Quote
Originally posted by Flipside
Problem is that if you get too deeply involved with the 'universe' you'll end up with BC3000AD, jack of all trades, master of none. Computers aren't 'quite' up to that level yet, it was like when I started that discussion about trading games, the trick is getting people to think a lot more is going on than really is ;)

As far as the skimming over surfaces of ships is concerned, can I just add that a Perseus travelling at 120m/s (500+ kph), when colliding with a capital ship should not, in my opinion, go doiiing!


Oh, of course.  I doubt anyone will every actually try to make the game, and if they did budget and time restrictions would most certainly mean the parts of it generally suck.  But since we were playing what if and all, why not.

 

Offline Flipside

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Quote
Originally posted by Ace
Everyone here seems to be focusing on combat or trading space sims.

To test the waters a bit:

How would you feel about an action-adventure spacesim? Like Star Controll II or Lightspeed?

The player is in control of a self-sufficient starship (like the Mothership in Homeworld) and explores say an accurately modeled globular cluster.

It would be overall a sandbox game, with factions that you can interact with.


I've never played either of those games to be honest, but it sounds kind of interesting, I'll have to try and find out more.

An a side-note : I always though that a MMORPG based on the Homeworld style of gameplay would kick ass ;)

 

Offline Inquisitor

Quote
I doubt anyone will every actually try to make the game, and if they did budget and time restrictions would most certainly mean the parts of it generally suck.


So long as people realize that :)
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Offline Inquisitor

Anything/anyone else?
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Offline Black Wolf

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Quote
Originally posted by Inquisitor
Anything/anyone else?


Nope.

Guess you'll have to make my game then. Ah well...

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Offline Inquisitor

Guess I need to book mark this :)
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Offline Singh

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If it's not too late to pitch in, I'd like to add that it should have a really, really good story behind it as well as good implementation.

Few space sims that I have seen thus far actually have gotten both right. Heck, few games in general that I have seen get it right :p
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