[NGTM-1R]

I think that the GTA's fleets had no fixed bases; this is a result of many years of seesaw warfare and the consequent development of a logistical system that can support them without fixed "home base" areas. With the advantage constantly changing hands, the GTA would have been wise to develop the capablity to support its fleets without the need for fixed installations. These, after all, might be overrun, and cannot pack up and move along if there's a sudden enemy collapse.

The GTVA has no reason to have such an independant capablity, as their fleets have been essentially in garrison for the last 20 years and so far the current setup had proved workable for the problem of the NTF.

The GTD Krios was the only destroyer officially assigned to GTI on a permanent basis: so it says in your command briefing when you come aboard.

The Soyakaze and Myrmidon are both regular GTA destroyers: the Myrmidon was temporarily seconded to GTI for the Einstein escape-pod recovery but was a regular navy ship, the Soyakaze never operated under GTI control as far as we know, though she absorbed the remains of the Krios' squadrons. The unknown destroyer that recovered some of the Einstein escape pods is almost certainly GTI, and is similarly almost certainly not supposed to exist, as the Krios is the only authorized GTI destroyer: it's a wonder Command didn't raise hell about somebody having an Orion when they aren't supposed to, unless Orions are a lot more common they we've been lead to believe.

Come to think of it, there's a continuity error in FS1 about the Bastion. You operate off the Bastion for the Ikeya shield-tech recovery mission that fails, but prior to Doomsday, when discussing the blockade, the command briefing you get says that Command is sending the newly commissioned GTD Bastion to assist the Galatea. The implied subtext is that things are desperate, because the Bastion hasn't gone through even a shakedown cruise to make sure everything works.

[Andreas]

Perhaps the GTD Myrmidon and the GTD Soyakaze were under construction during the T-V/Great War, and were spared destruction (they would replace the Galatea and Amadeus respectively)?

According to the SB Nephilim tech description, "We have already lost two Orion class destroyers to a wing of Nephilims.", there is still one other destroyed Orion (if we take that assumption that GTD Amadeus was indeed destroyed by Nephilims), could that be the GTD Minnow (Hippo, I know your campaign has that ship, so don't get mad )?

How long after Silent Threat is supposed to take place anyways? A month, a year? I suppose the GTD ??? was of secret construction, along with Hades.

Incidentally, the tech entry for the Amun: "It carries a massive payload and has been responsible for the destruction of at least 3 Orion class destroyers in the past 2 years." 3 Orions? So in total there have already been 9 destroyers existing in the T-V war. Very interesting. I wonder how much a single Orion costs?

[Taristin]

Is there a list of these destroyers?


Intrepid
Eisenhower
Galatea
Minnow
Myrmidon
Bastion
Phoenecia
Amadeus
Soyakaze


There's . NTF ships weren't renamed after defection, where they? (Although, it'd make more sense if they were, since there'd be a pattern. 'The repulse, and vindication have rebelled. We're watching you retribution....')

[Andreas]

I wonder if any of the Orions the NTF had were built during the T-V/Great War? Bastion was decomissioned after only 30 years, so I guess at least some of the NTF's ships could be that old, since I got the impression that they were basically backwater systems, so the GTVA wouldn't have been in a hurry to modernise them so quickly.

Ugh, my head is starting to hurt.

[StratComm]

Originally posted by Andreas
I wonder if any of the Orions the NTF had were built during the T-V/Great War? Bastion was decomissioned after only 30 years, so I guess at least some of the NTF's ships could be that old, since I got the impression that they were basically backwater systems, so the GTVA wouldn't have been in a hurry to modernise them so quickly.

Ugh, my head is starting to hurt.

But they were upfitted with beam weaponry like the rest of the fleet, and they were fully stocked with fighters (albeit old ones) by the looks of it.  That points to active deployment at the time of defection, as does the number of Deimos corvettes that they had available.  Unless the Polaris shipyards had a boneyard where the Orions were mothballed (again, unlikely, because the Bastion and Nereid both were pulled out of mothball status from somewhere else.

[Taristin]

Well... there was a long war with the Vasudans, and a short, but more deadly one with the shivans... so I'd expect all of the capital ships, mothballed or not, to have a large complement of fighters around.

[Andreas]

Very true, I forgot the beams. So, would it be more cost-effective to build a new Orion with beams rather than to upgrade existing but old design, which would perhaps require extensive reactor and system upgrades?

[StratComm]

Or just steal an active one.  The Shipyard (completed) mission that is an example of how to use FRED operates on that premise.  Though I do get the impression that most of the destroyers that "defected" were actually stolen out from under a much smaller crew than their normal operating levels.  I mean, what are the odds that most of a 10,000 man crew actually want to defect?

[Andreas]

I meant that what happened to the old Orions like the Intrepid that survived the Great War? Were they upgraded to have beams or simply scrapped and have the GTVA shipyards churn out new ones with beams?

[StratComm]

I'd imagine that would have more to do with when they were retired than anything else.  Though the hull and the interior condition may not have been on a direct correlation, destroyers that were relatively new in FS1 would have been the oldest ones in the fleet by the time of FS2, with many of the FS1-era destroyers getting destroyed during that timespan.  I'd also assume that the reactor overhaul necessary to mount heavy beam weaponry on the Orions would have necessitated major refits, and some of the Orions may have simply been incompatible with the changes based on the age of the technology inside.  They obviously aren't the same internally though, as evidenced by the Bastion's mainhall vs. the Galatea's.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by StratComm
They obviously aren't the same internally though, as evidenced by the Bastion's mainhall vs. the Galatea's.

Well...that might be a bit of a dodgy assumption, as the mainhalls might simply be in different places on the ship..........

[StratComm]

I think it's a safe assumption, as they both are supposed to be in the hanger bay.  Though one could certainly make an argument for different camera position, it's pretty much standard practice to make minor alterations to an existing hull design, especially internally, as demands dictate.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
The GTD Krios was the only destroyer officially assigned to GTI on a permanent basis: so it says in your command briefing when you come aboard.

Not really.  It says the Krios is the GTI's Special Ops destroyer.  Not the GTI's destroyer, period.  Which implies there are other GTI destroyers not assigned to Special Ops.

The Myrmidon is most likely a GTI destroyer.  The Soyakaze could go either way... it could be a loyal GTI destroyer that was absorbed into the GTA after most of the GTI went rogue, or it could be a regular GTA destroyer all along.

The command briefing you get says that Command is sending the newly commissioned GTD Bastion to assist the Galatea.

It never says that.  It says "Command is sending another destroyer, the GTD Bastion."  There's nothing that indicates the Bastion was newly commissioned.

Originally posted by Andreas
According to the SB Nephilim tech description, "We have already lost two Orion class destroyers to a wing of Nephilims.", there is still one other destroyed Orion (if we take that assumption that GTD Amadeus was indeed destroyed by Nephilims), could that be the GTD Minnow (Hippo, I know your campaign has that ship, so don't get mad )?

The Minnow stays around at least until the end of Act 2, during the defense of Vasuda prime.

I wonder how much a single Orion costs?

"..., the cost to build one of these far outweighs the cost of paying the crew of this ship for 3 years."

Originally posted by Raa
Phoenecia

I don't think there's a Phoenicia in FS1.

[Andreas]

I think that GTI and GTI Special Operations are the same. Like SOC is to the GTVI. Considering that the GTA would have hardly authorized the construction of more than one or two Orions for the GTI, the GTD Krios is certainly a GTI destroyer, and maybe also the Soyakaze.

But like in FS1, League of Defense could "loan" their ships to use in GTI sanctioned operations, so I don't see anything wrong with Myrmidon being a GTA destroyer, on loan for use in GTI ops.

I was just speculating about the Minnow, though I think that the tech entry for the Nephilim does appear before Minnow is even mentioned.

As for GTD Phoenicia, she was a Hecate-class destroyer in FS2.

[NGTM-1R]

Originally posted by Goober5000
Not really.  It says the Krios is the GTI's Special Ops destroyer.  Not the GTI's destroyer, period.  Which implies there are other GTI destroyers not assigned to Special Ops.

The Myrmidon is most likely a GTI destroyer.  The Soyakaze could go either way... it could be a loyal GTI destroyer that was absorbed into the GTA after most of the GTI went rogue, or it could be a regular GTA destroyer all along.It never says that.

Perhaps...but there are problems with that. What use besides special ops would GTI have for a combatant craft as large and as powerful as an Orion? A destroyer is too big and too useful as a main combatant for escort or guard duty. Arcadias have their own fighter wings for that, and cruisers are the ideal escort craft. The combat power of an Orion is simply too much to be wasted so. You don't use ships of the line to escort merchant convoys. Orions operated at the front throughout FS1, holding the line or pushing the enemy back, and we know of no cases where they were pulled out of the front line any longer then absolutely necessary.

The Soyakaze is almost definitely a GTA ship: recall that your first command briefing aboard it says the the GTA has declared ALL of GTI (outside of your band of Krios survivors, who they presumably trust because GTI shot at you), to be traitors, and authorized all GTA craft to engage them on contact.

[Goober5000]

An Orion can also serve as a central command facility for a fleet.  It's mobile, so it can go where the fleet goes.  And its operations do not have to be limited to special operations.

In Silent Threat: Reborn, we gave the GTI three sections, special ops, intelligence, and research and development.  Each has their own fleets headed by an Orion.

[WMCoolmon]

Here's a guess: maybe Bosch arranged for GTVA capital ships to be retrofitted in the general area of Polaris, citing economic renewal as reasons. The upper levels of the civillian government - especially jealous of the Vasudans' quick recovery, as their systems are doing even worse than the rest of the GTVA - put pressure on the GTVA to award these lucrative defense contracts to them.

Bosch's solution seems like an opportunity to quash the complaints while getting the capital ships retrofitted for a slightly cheaper price. Plus, no new expensive training/drydocks are needed for work on all new designs; everyone and everything is already equipped to handle Great War-era ships. So, the ships are sent over to the shipyards with a skeleton crew.

Bosch takes advantage of the lingering discontent at Vasudans; possibly stages an 'incident' or two. (Remember how in the escort-the-Iceni mission, Snipes was quick to blame the Vasudans for asteroid damage to the Hinton? Same principal applies here. )

With refits nearly complete, the rebels take control of the vessels and Bosch declares the NTF an independent entity. Command goes "Oh crap!"; enter Freespace 2.

[WMCoolmon]

As for the Iceni, I'm not sure whether Command knew about it or not, which sort of throws a kink into things, but not really. It actually sort of reinforces the above theory.

Command was quick to try and make pilots believe that Bosch wasn't on the station, and wanted to destroy it. They could be covering up an experimental new capital ship...or simply wanting Bosch to disappear, so there would be no chance of him becoming a martyr, and less chance of someone assuming control of the fleet. The hull also seems to be similar in composition to the Colossus', maybe indicating a next-generation ship?

This isn't supported by the fact that Command tells you to investigate the asteroid. Although that could be explained as them being curious if Bosch had taken control of it, or because the weird grey-sphere things were actually engines and Bosch repositioned the installation so the GTVA wouldn't find it.

Maybe it was even another GTI ship, or a testbed for Colossus systems.

If Command didn't know, then it was probably done by Bosch to serve solely for the ETAK deal. (The Iceni's double-jump at the Knossos could've been facilitated by special jump capacitors) But of course all the NTF technicians would be told that it was a Neo-terran flagship, and giggle about how they'd pulled one on Command by using the beam weapons intended for retrofitting existing capital ships to build a cool new frigate.

Regardless, construction of the Iceni would require weapons and components. But with a retrofit, that wouldn't be as much of a problem.

Say you need beam cannons. Well, you classify the final destinations of such weaponry somewhat beyond the people taking them in-system. They know where they're going; obviously, shipyard/drydock locations would be fairly well know.

But they don't know exactly where. They can't track their exact path.

On the other side of things, you keep very accurate records of where things went. But when you want some beam cannons for the Iceni, you tell station A that station B got this beam cannon; station B, when it checks the same records, is told that Station A got the beam cannon.

The end result is that everyone is either in on the Iceni, and therefore gone through security checks, or thinks that somebody else got and used the beam cannon. The high volume of vessels being retrofitted would mean that tiny changes in the supplies wouldn't be as noticeable.

Whee.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by WMCoolmon
With refits nearly complete, the rebels take control of the vessels and Bosch declares the NTF an independent entity. Command goes "Oh crap!"; enter Freespace 2.

One small problem. Bosch wasn't based in Polaris. Bosch was the commander of the 6th fleet based in Epsilon Pegasi. Once the rebellion started Bosch was either pushed or moved into Polaris and set up his base there.

Seems odd that he could stage a rebellion in Polaris while not based in that system.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by karajorma
One small problem. Bosch wasn't based in Polaris. Bosch was the commander of the 6th fleet based in Epsilon Pegasi.

Is that canon?