Author Topic: new pope elected (Read 7588 times)

Mongoose · **Reply #20 on:** April 19, 2005, 03:38:19 pm

I'd venture a guess that most people here don't agree with me, but Cardinal Ratzinger's election is definitely the best thing for the Church. We don't need a weak pope who bends to secular culture; we need someone who upholds Church doctrine and teachings. From what I've heard, Ratzinger is the right man for the job.

aldo_14 · **Reply #21 on:** April 19, 2005, 03:46:23 pm

Quote

Originally posted by Mongoose
I'd venture a guess that most people here don't agree with me, but Cardinal Ratzinger's election is definitely the best thing for the Church. We don't need a weak pope who bends to secular culture; we need someone who upholds Church doctrine and teachings. From what I've heard, Ratzinger is the right man for the job.

You could say 'bending to secular culture' often equates to 'tolerance of other people', of course.

Unknown Target · **Reply #22 on:** April 19, 2005, 03:46:30 pm

When you say "secular interests" are you referring to other religions? I realize the value of holding up your religion's inherent beliefs, but don't you think that maybe, just maybe, you should be open to accepting others into the world, and not persecuting people left and right, or condemming them, because you don't agree with their beliefs? Millions have died because of such things, so don't you think that the Church, who claims to be moraly incorruptable, should take a hint and realize that they can't bring everyone into their fold, so they should just accept all people as people, and not carve them up by religion, race, or sexual preference?

Rictor · **Reply #23 on:** April 19, 2005, 03:53:42 pm

I actually think that intolerance is one of the things whichs established the Big 3 as what they are. It's not all lovey-dovey. There are strict codified rules and laws, and a belief system which says that there is right and wrong, and that right and wrong are passed down by God.

It doesn't affect me one way or another, but I think that someone who sticks to their guns and refuses to change a 2000 year old relgion, and all the beliefs associated with it, is more authentic than a Pope who would bend to the whim of the times, so to speak. Intolerance is simply part of relgion, because it was a part of the world-view at the time the relgion was created. You may not like it, but it is an integral part of the belief.

AnnihilaterD · **Reply #24 on:** April 19, 2005, 03:56:22 pm

Yes, millions have died because of that, but as far as I know, all the major religions teach tolerance. Its just people choose to ignore the parts they dont like.

Unknown Target · **Reply #25 on:** April 19, 2005, 03:56:57 pm

Yes, well, the Church was wrong about the Earth being the cener of the universe. By extension, maybe they could be wrong about not tolerating anyone else, and maybe, just maybe, accepting that their basic beliefs might different, but they just might possibly still be human beings, worthy of being treated as such.
Or is that just crazy talk?

aldo_14 · **Reply #26 on:** April 19, 2005, 03:58:10 pm

IIRC the Catholic churches principle aim is expressly to convert the entire world to Roman Catholicism; IMO that does raise a potential issue of tolerance - I think it's ok for the Pope to say 'Catholics can't be homosexual' (etc), but not to extend that judgement to non-Catholics, which I think is what happens.

Unknown Target · **Reply #27 on:** April 19, 2005, 03:58:55 pm

It's exactly what happens, and it promotes it's followers to do the same - witness the current civil rights problem in the US.

Goober5000 · **Reply #28 on:** April 19, 2005, 04:07:36 pm

So, any thoughts on how he satisfies "Gloria Olivae" aside from the name Benedict?

Ford Prefect · **Reply #29 on:** April 19, 2005, 04:07:56 pm

Quote

Originally posted by Unknown Target
Yes, well, the Church was wrong about the Earth being the cener of the universe. By extension, maybe they could be wrong about not tolerating anyone else, and maybe, just maybe, accepting that their basic beliefs might different, but they just might possibly still be human beings, worthy of being treated as such.
Or is that just crazy talk?

The the sun being the center of the solar system is irrefutable fact. But there are no universal laws that apply to "tolerance" and "acceptance," so the same argument doesn't apply.

Rictor · **Reply #30 on:** April 19, 2005, 04:19:17 pm

The Church can't actually be wrong, because they don't believe things based on facts. Relgion is not rational. They can take moral positions, such as "homosexuality is wrong", but because that it a belief, you can't really say they're wrong about it.

Think about it: in order for you and your religion to be "in" with God, someone else has to be "out", or else the term doesn't mean anything. In that respect, being exclusionary is part and parcel of the big three monotheistic religions.

Mongoose · **Reply #31 on:** April 19, 2005, 04:28:05 pm

Quote

Originally posted by Unknown Target
Yes, well, the Church was wrong about the Earth being the cener of the universe. By extension, maybe they could be wrong about not tolerating anyone else, and maybe, just maybe, accepting that their basic beliefs might different, but they just might possibly still be human beings, worthy of being treated as such.
Or is that just crazy talk?

Last time I checked, the Church tolerates everyone, regardless of beliefs; in fact, anything less would be immoral, since by the Church's own stance, every human being has inherent dignity and worth.

Zarax · **Reply #32 on:** April 19, 2005, 04:29:27 pm

We'll see, at this pont there's a lot of upset people here in Italy, hopes were for another kind of pope...
The cheer suddenly disappeared when they heard who the new pope is...
Well, i guess there will be a lot less "papa boys" now...

IceFire · **Reply #33 on:** April 19, 2005, 04:35:02 pm

Sounds like he's a real conservative fellow. Hopefully he doesn't rock to boat too much...which is ironic for a conservative but...yeah.

aldo_14 · **Reply #34 on:** April 19, 2005, 04:40:42 pm

Quote

Originally posted by Mongoose

Last time I checked, the Church tolerates everyone, regardless of beliefs; in fact, anything less would be immoral, since by the Church's own stance, every human being has inherent dignity and worth.

Actually, that's the issue being debated. Does, for example, describing the call for legal same-sex marriage as an 'ideology of evil' count as tolerance?

Interestingly, I found this quote;

[q]
2000-SEP-5: Statement on the status of non-Catholic religions by the Vatican: According to The Times News Service, London UK: 12,13
The Vatican published a declaration Dominus Iesus on SEP-5. It was written by Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, with the approval of the pope. It was ratified and confirmed by the pope "with sure knowledge and by his apostolic authority."

The statement says, in part, that "Churches such as the Church of England, where the apostolic succession of bishops from the time of St. Peter is disputed by Rome, and churches without bishops, are not considered 'proper' churches." They suffer from "defects." Religions other than Christianity are considered to be "gravely deficient." Their rituals constitute "an obstacle to salvation" for their followers.
[/q]

[q]2000-SEP-25: Vatican: Roman Catholic - Jewish Ceremony postponed: According to CWNews: 15
The Vatican indefinitely postponed a ceremony emphasizing Christian-Jewish dialogue. It was scheduled to be held on OCT-3 as part of the Vatican's year 2000 Jubilee celebration. The reason for the suspension was that Elio Toaff, Rome's chief rabbi, had revealed that he would not be attending. There is speculation that Rabbi Toaff was distressed at recent Vatican moves, including:
bullet The beautification of Pope Pius IX -- regarded by many as a notorious antisemite.

The recently released church document Dominus Iesus which stated that religions other than Christianity are considered to be "gravely deficient." 13 Their rituals constitute "an obstacle to salvation" for their followers. This presumably included Judaism[/q]

Unknown Target · **Reply #35 on:** April 19, 2005, 04:43:46 pm

Quote

Originally posted by Mongoose

Last time I checked, the Church tolerates everyone, regardless of beliefs; in fact, anything less would be immoral, since by the Church's own stance, every human being has inherent dignity and worth.

Err...the Crusades? Slavery? Homosexuals? Other religions?

Quote

The the sun being the center of the solar system is irrefutable fact. But there are no universal laws that apply to "tolerance" and "acceptance," so the same argument doesn't apply.

Yes it is. It's not a tolerance to a people - it's a tolerance to an idea. The Church has no tolerance for differing ideas, hence, no tolerance for differring religions.
And it can be scientifically proven that the Earth is indeed not the center of the universe. But even if it couldn't - the Earth is still not the center of the solar system, something the Church was also wrong about.

[qupte]
The Church can't actually be wrong, because they don't believe things based on facts. Relgion is not rational. They can take moral positions, such as "homosexuality is wrong", but because that it a belief, you can't really say they're wrong about it.[/quote]

Then that is one of the reasons why religion should not be involved in government, as it defaults to the beliefs of the religion, not the general moral standings of humanity. For instance, persecution of someone based on their beliefs: the educated amongst us know that this is wrong. Yet a religion (I'm not saying Christianity) can say that it is right, and then do whatever they want with that.

Shrike · **Reply #36 on:** April 19, 2005, 05:22:44 pm

"Now, Protestant scum, you will see the true power of this armed and operational Papal Star!"

Flipside · **Reply #37 on:** April 19, 2005, 05:27:07 pm

All we need now is a little Yoda bloke to have a lightsabre fight with the new Pope. That would be cool either way

KappaWing · **Reply #38 on:** April 19, 2005, 05:52:51 pm

"Your immoral tendecies appal me, liberals! I have 10,000 cardinals and bishops willing to piss our pants for conservativism! The tyranny of your regime is finished! Pope Benidict XVI out!"

Swamp_Thing · **Reply #39 on:** April 19, 2005, 06:23:17 pm

I don´t understand why they elected a guy that can only rule for 2 years. It´s not enough time to warm the seat.
The church needs fresh blood. Literally.

But to be honest, i really don´t give a crap who they elect. It´s all the same crap, only the smell changes. Bunch of pedophiles...