[KappaWing]

Originally posted by Raa
The bible also says:
DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together


And yet, the church does.

I've worked so hard to get to heaven, yet my boxers are 40% cotton and 60% nylon. Wow, according to this passage, I'm literally covered in sin! I've been a nice person all my life, but it looks like I'm gonna go to hell because of this. Damn you Fruit of the Loom!

[Ford Prefect]

What about silk and microfiber? I can't get around that, what with ties and all.

[vyper]

[q] Damn you Fruit of the Loom![/q]

That's getting immortalized!

[TrashMan]

Ratzinger is the best choice for the church..

The word Conservative has been given a negative meaning lately, while in fact there is no reason for it.
At the same time liberals are started to be called "progressive", like they are mode advanced in human development than the conservatives...what a load of bull!

The goal of hte Church is to preach God's laws, NOT to gain more followers by bending as the wind blows. If the Church lost 90% of it's flock while it clang to it's ways it still wouldn't be considered a failiure.

Most people don't get it that the church and state are different things - whiel the state has to listen to the will of the people, the Church doesn't. And that's what bothers some people....the fact that it won't be their way...

[Ford Prefect]

The word Conservative has been given a negative meaning lately, while in fact there is no reason for it.
At the same time liberals are started to be called "progressive", like they are mode advanced in human development than the conservatives...what a load of bull!

"Conservative" is given a bad connotation by liberals, and "liberal" is given a bad connotation by conservatives, so don't go nailing yourself to a cross too quickly.

The goal of hte Church is to preach God's laws, NOT to gain more followers by bending as the wind blows.

So apparently God was long under the impression that the Earth is the center of his creation, until he got glasses or something.

If the Church lost 90% of it's flock while it clang to it's ways it still wouldn't be considered a failiure.

Except by the 90% who left.

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by Unknown Target
So? That doesn't mean much when the basic precedents have remained unchanged.

Not really. The Catholic Church clearly stated that you don't have to be a christian to go the heaven and that everyone is your brother.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by TrashMan


Not really. The Catholic Church clearly stated that you don't have to be a christian to go the heaven and that everyone is your brother.

It also stated (quoted previously) that other Christian churches were 'deficient' and 'an obstacle to salvation', in a 2000 statement by none other than Messer Ratzinger.

Incidentally, a nitpick RE: 'conservative'; the actual meaning of conservatism is not to progress atall - i.e. to maintain the current 'order' for better or worse.  'Conservative' (big C) and 'Liberal' are political ideologies more than representing conservatism or its opposite (progressive), i.e. left and right wing.  I think that a positive viewing of conservatism (with a small c) could only occur if you thought the world was perfect and didn't need to change.

Finally, the whole reason* (some) people don't like religion in general is simple; it's the question 'who are you to judge me?'  I think that's worth noting (although it's somewhat OT); religions by nature have to judge the world and aim to convert it, of course that causes friction.

*IMO

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by karajorma
Are you trying to tell me that the same God who wiped out 3000 people for praying to the Golden Calf was worried about people worshipping another God and needed to do some touchy-feely weening of people off of slavery because he was worried about people worshipping another God?

If God didn't want people to have slaves he'd have done the same thing he did with every other thing he didn't want and burnt the lot of them if they dared to argue with him. I really don't buy this whole argument.

God had certain priorities.  Slavery matters less, from a spiritual perspective, than worshipping another god - especially since people are enslaved to sin anyway and also enslaved to each other to some degree (social status, government, etc.).

Slavery matters less, in the long run, than murder, adultery, theft, etc.  Those were more important and were therefore given more attention.

As for the rape thing lets go for the less ambiguous one then. The whole "rape yourself a new wife for 50 shekels" thing in deuteronomy 22:28? Are you trying to claim that this was also just a regulation then?

That's another hybrid, but it's a complex issue.

The law against committing adultery stands.  However, since in that case the girl wasn't married, she wasn't actually committing marital adultery.  Therefore the rapist was "marrying" her by having sex with her.  The 50 shekels and "taking her as a wife" just made it a legal marriage.

The reason for this arrangement is that the rapist now is responsible for the woman he raped, both socially and because they may have a son coming along.  The woman, in turn, is given the security of a husband and saved from being ostracized.  Society would otherwise shun a victim of rape, so this is the best possible outcome for her.

Originally posted by karajorma
But if the old covenant is gone then everything not stated in the new covenant is defunct so why in hell's name do christians constantly go on about the 10 commandments?

And even if it does say in the NT that they are still valid where does it say which other parts are valid?

Take a look at this:

Colossians 2:13-17
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

The "written code, with its regulations" was canceled.  Not the law, which was "fulfilled" (Jesus: "I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it") and is still valid.

[karajorma]

So the 10 commandments are now invalid too then?

[Flipside]

Well, number one certainly has to be. The Cross, The Virgin Mary etc etc are all infractions of it.

[aldo_14]

You'd think God could have come up with a better way of saying what he did and didn't want.... perhaps engraving it upon the coastline of France, or across womens breasts (the latter would ensure men read them.....).

[Taristin]

Originally posted by Flipside
Well, number one certainly has to be. The Cross, The Virgin Mary etc etc are all infractions of it.

No, no. Those are tests. Like dinosaur fossils...

[Flipside]

As one guy being prosecuted for Graffiti writing once said 'Well.... God leads by example'

[Mongoose]

Originally posted by Flipside
Well, number one certainly has to be. The Cross, The Virgin Mary etc etc are all infractions of it.

No, they're not.  Neither one is worshipped.  Images of Christ on the cross, i.e. crucifixes, are what are known as sacramentals, objects or actions that serve to symbolize a certain principle or idea of one's faith.  When I kneel in front of a cross to pray, I'm not praying to that piece of wood as if it was an idol; I'm praying to Christ.  The cross serves as something like a visual aid, if you will.

As for Mary, contrary to a popular misconception among many fundamentalists, Catholics do not worship her.  Rather, we ask her to pray for us and to intercede for us with her son.  In the same way, we ask certain saints to pray for us.  Mary has never been considered a divine being on the level of God; she was a simple woman, but incredibly special in that she was chosen to bear God's son.

Regarding the Old Testament regulations, i.e. the "wool-linen" line that so many people fling around for some reason, these sorts of statements were really nothing more than societal regulations for the Jewish people.  They're your ancient equivalent of traffic codes.  As Gooberman, I believe, said earlier, these regulations are completely different from the moral guidelines outlined in the Ten Commandments.  The Ten Commandments outline God's moral law, while the other statements are societal rules.  Christ himself spoke of the Pharisees who criticized him for breaking such "commandments" as not working on the Sabbath (one one occasion when he healed a man's hand in the synagogue) as hypocrites, following the law's minutiae such as ritual washing while completely ignoring God's morality.

Regarding Christ and his connection to the Old Testament, he did not abolish it or its commandments; rather, he fulfilled it.  Through his death and resurrection, Christ made a new covenant with humanity.  While God's original covenant with Abraham applied to the nation of Israel and was sealed with the blood of a ram, Christ's covenant was with all of humanity and sealed with his own blood; Christ died and conquered death so that all of humanity could experience everlasting life.  Christ did not abolish the Ten Commandments; he reaffirmed them.  Indeed, Christ summed up all ten of the commandments in one of his most important teachings, "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself."

[aldo_14]

So if the bible is so important, why are parts of it ignoreable?  What's the point or relevance of a holy book if some of it isn't actually 'holy'?

[Flipside]

But there are far far more crosses representing Christiantiy in the world than crosses with images of Christ on them. That suggests the Cross is the more important part of the pairing in Christianities view?

[Clave]

You know, if I had been crucified, then came back to life, say 2,000 years later, the last thing I'd want to see was loads of crosses everywhere....

[Stealth]

i actually agree 100% with Flipside's point...

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Mongoose
Regarding the Old Testament regulations, i.e. the "wool-linen" line that so many people fling around for some reason, these sorts of statements were really nothing more than societal regulations for the Jewish people.  They're your ancient equivalent of traffic codes.  As Gooberman, I believe, said earlier, these regulations are completely different from the moral guidelines outlined in the Ten Commandments.  The Ten Commandments outline God's moral law, while the other statements are societal rules.  Christ himself spoke of the Pharisees who criticized him for breaking such "commandments" as not working on the Sabbath (one one occasion when he healed a man's hand in the synagogue) as hypocrites, following the law's minutiae such as ritual washing while completely ignoring God's morality.

Regarding Christ and his connection to the Old Testament, he did not abolish it or its commandments; rather, he fulfilled it.  Through his death and resurrection, Christ made a new covenant with humanity.  While God's original covenant with Abraham applied to the nation of Israel and was sealed with the blood of a ram, Christ's covenant was with all of humanity and sealed with his own blood; Christ died and conquered death so that all of humanity could experience everlasting life.  Christ did not abolish the Ten Commandments; he reaffirmed them.  Indeed, Christ summed up all ten of the commandments in one of his most important teachings, "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself."

So by that logic the pope should dump the whole restrictions on birth control thing then right? After all that's not even a regulation, Christ never said anything on the matter and the only thing it's based on is Onan getting wiped out for spilling his seed.
 If we're saying that anything that isn't restated as being a law in the NT isn't one then birth control is completely okay.

[Ace]

Originally posted by TrashMan
The goal of hte Church is to preach God's laws, NOT to gain more followers by bending as the wind blows.

No, spreading your legs as the wind blows (and not allowing contraceptives) seems to be the way you're wanting to gain followers.

At least you're having fun practicing you faith... though the whole having to wait 14-20 years for an effective follower isn't very cost effective.