Author Topic: new pope elected  (Read 7147 times)

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Offline Wanderer

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About that flood the Bible describes. It is possible that it really has  happened, though not on that scale. Some theories says the formation of the Black Sea is behind it. The similar flood is also described in Mesopotamian epic Gilgames (along with single survivor completely analogous to Nooa named Atrahasis) so it really is possible that it happened. Main difference to the Bible seems to be that in the epic Gilgames they had more than one divinity to worship.

BTW Christianity is known for its ability to adapt to (or rather: steal ideas from) local customs with good results. For example the Christmas was originally a roman (=pagan) fest called Saturnalia. And even here in Finland we still have originally purely pagan holiday known as Midsummer, complete with bonefires and all, which has been tried in the past to link to John the Baptist by the church with quite poor results.

So which myths or writings are really Christian, and which have been adopted from other sources? Especially after early church in its great wisdom decided to remove (burn?) the religious writings that didn't fit their agenda (the Apocrypha (perhaps misspelled)) from the NT.
Do not meddle in the affairs of coders for they are soggy and hard to light

 

Offline aldo_14

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Originally posted by Zarax
I'm sure your intentions are good Aldo, however i'm sure you can see where these consideration leads...
Do we really want another flamewar on that topic?


It only becomes a flamewar if people start flaming each other.

IMO the main posters in this particular topic are me, kara, Bobbau and Goober, none of whom are noted for this.  Now, if Kazan &/or Lib (for example) was here, maybe we'd have a mite of a problem (:p).  But they're not, so I think we're fine. :)

Incidentally, my aim in this things is always to point out my personal belief/opinion as much as possible, so people know where I'm coming from.  Hopefully that helps.....

 

Offline Zarax

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Ok, i'll preemptively shut up on the issue, hope you manage to keep things cool :)
The Best is Yet to Come

 

Offline Solatar

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I can't remember any specific examples, but I was sure there were a few more flood stories other than the Hebrew Bible and the Epic of Gilgamesh.

*goes and tries to find*

 

Offline Flipside

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Yes, the story of the floods is widely accepted in many cultures.

Also, and this is spooky....


http://mmmgroup.altervista.org/e-ark.html

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/planetearth/noahs_ark_010823-1.html

I remember seeing this years ago. Not much concrete stuff, but several religions/cultures do also mention Arks :)

 

Offline TrashMan

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Originally posted by Ford Prefect

"Conservative" is given a bad connotation by liberals, and "liberal" is given a bad connotation by conservatives, so don't go nailing yourself to a cross too quickly.

/// I'm reffering to the way mass media seem to take the liberal side.

So apparently God was long under the impression that the Earth is the center of his creation, until he got glasses or something.

/// The basics of the faith have nothing to do with the flatness of the world. But granted, in the beginning, priests took too much liberty with their interpretations. Luckily, today the church recognizes science and has highly intelligent people in it's ranks...So something like that won't occur again..

Except by the 90% who left.

/// Who cares what they think.

Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline TrashMan

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Originally posted by aldo_14

This is exactly my point, really; parts of the bible are outdated and written for the time they were created - so what ensures the rest is any more sacrosanct than those other than mass acceptance?


//// There is a difference - the Old testament was passed down for generations first verbally and then in written form, and in times were priests took it upon themselves to interpret it and write it far more freely.
That's why it's not quite genuine or correct. The New Testament was writtne immediately by the apostols and their closest folowers, and Christ was directly cited. So it is far more accurate and a univarsal moral guidebook for all times.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline aldo_14

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Originally posted by TrashMan

//// There is a difference - the Old testament was passed down for generations first verbally and then in written form, and in times were priests took it upon themselves to interpret it and write it far more freely.
That's why it's not quite genuine or correct. The New Testament was writtne immediately by the apostols and their closest folowers, and Christ was directly cited. So it is far more accurate and a univarsal moral guidebook for all times.


Actually, there are continuing claims of editing and changes to the NT by the church over the years; changed or omitted verses, etc, based upon examining ancient manuscripts.

In particular, I believe there is an issue over whether the spear was thrust into Jesus before or after death; apparently there's evidence of alteration from the older manuscripts.

What you should remember is that this is a document dating from 2 thousand years ago, repeatedly copied, translated, etc by an institution with a vested interest in removing any ambiguity from it.

Unfortunately, the best pages I have on this are (via google; not looked for too long) http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/reli1.htm & http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/reli2.htm .  You might find the title implies initial bias, of course, so I'm trying to find info on a Channel 4 documentary from a few months ago which examined the question of the church altering the bible to gain followers in the 10th+ centuries.

EDIT; http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/B/believeitornot/debates/bible.html *ding* found it;
[q]The same goes for the four Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Beckford dives down into the ancient catacombs beneath a church in Rome to discover why Mark, the first Gospel writer, started to write about Jesus in the first place – as an encouragement to the first generation of Christians, who were facing persecution. He discovers that although the Gospel writers seem to be giving us direct reportage from the life of Jesus, each of them actually had his own spin on the story. While Matthew was keen to show how Jewish Jesus was, for the Jewish wing of the early church, Luke pushed the Roman angle. He packaged the teaching and miracles of Jesus to show that even civilised Roman citizens could believe in him.

There have been many TV programmes that have tried to bury the Bible – but this is no hatchet job. We get a clue about this when we see Robert Beckford at the tomb of Christ, inside Jerusalem's Church of the Holy Sepulchre. As he stoops to leave the tomb, he wipes tears from his eyes. 'I was really moved by the experience,' he says. 'I am a Christian; I believe in the teachings of Jesus, so to be in a holy place, contemplating life, moved me. And I'm sufficiently secure in my African Caribbean maleness to express a full range of emotions without fear of censure!'[/q]

Sadly, I can't seem to find a full transcript.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2005, 09:51:32 am by 181 »

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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I'm reffering to the way mass media seem to take the liberal side.

There are liberal and conservative forces in the media that provide enough material for all people to get their Two Minutes of Hate. Everyone is always quick to point out the ones with an opposing bias, and ignore those that lean in their direction.
Quote
The basics of the faith have nothing to do with the flatness of the world. But granted, in the beginning, priests took too much liberty with their interpretations. Luckily, today the church recognizes science and has highly intelligent people in it's ranks...So something like that won't occur again..

If we were to omit everything from a religion that has nothing to do with the "basics of the faith", I think it would become rather apparent how strikingly alike all religions are, as we would be left with relatively little.
Quote
Who cares what they think.

They do. And that's not an emotional appeal. If the vast majority of a particular religion abandons the creed, that religion is at risk of becoming extinct, because an ideology with no followers is, by definition, nonexistent.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

  

Offline TrashMan

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There will allways be some faithfull who will continue to follow, even if most desert...

Faith is not about conforming to your wishes - it's you who have to conform to to the Faith.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline Flipside

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That's Blind Faith, and it's called Blind for a reason.

 

Offline aldo_14

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I always thought faith was supposed to be worthless unless it was tested, by the person or another.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Originally posted by aldo_14
I always thought faith was supposed to be worthless unless it was tested, by the person or another.

Aldo, you're right; that is the definition of true faith.  Real faith is a constant test, whether through your own questioning or some outside event or source.  The only way faith can be strengthened is through this testing.  I've experienced this in my own life; the people I know who have the strongest faith have gone through a lot of misfortune in their lives.  Blind faith without reason is immature faith; maturing in faith involves deciding to follow it of your own volition.