Author Topic: Wow, things have come full circle  (Read 5690 times)

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Offline Flipside

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Wow, things have come full circle
Well, quite a lot of countries are guilty of, when one of the enemy speaks against their own, saying 'here here! Brave person! Good on them!' and yet, should the opposite happen, baying for blood.

 

Offline WMCoolmon

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Wow, things have come full circle
Those of you trying to throw out examples of situations with a russian actress or whatever, it's not going to work too well. Obviously, the North Vietnamese were thrilled to have an American helping their side.

It is a subjective opinion thing. Objectively, I can say there's something disgusting about someone who accuses people who go to war of being liars and hypocrites about what happened there, based on the word of the people they're fighting.

Those of you who are saying "There's nothing wrong with what she did, no one should be angry", please put yourself in the shoes of the average US conscript. Stuck in Vietnam, not because they want to, but because the alternative would be to go to jail. Everybody you knew is probably still back in the US, along with whatever romantic friend you have. All you really want to do is go back home.

So then Jane Fonda gets on the radio and starts talking about how the North Vietnamese really aren't that bad, and denouncing you and everybody else in the military. She's not even acknowledging the conditions you and the rest of your unit are fighting in; instead she's off posing in pictures, getting on the radio to tell people how bad you are, supporting the North Vietnamese.

I'm pretty sure I read something about her advocating people burning their draft cards and going to jail rather than serve. Which is great...except she ccouldn't be drafted. Very interesting.

If she had been protesting the US's involvement in the war, that would be one thing. But I've gotten the impression that she pretty heatedly castigated everyone who participated in the war in any way for any reason, and now that she's apologized expects to get off scot-free. Meanwhile, everyone who actually participated in the war had to deal with the prejudice that she helped stir up.

Here's a fun counter-example. For a school project, I interviewed a Vietnam veteran who also happened to be a draftee. He won a couple medals (Air medal and Bronze star medal), had the experience of being spat on as he arrived in the US, took him something like ten years to really recover from the shame of having participated in Vietnam, and is looking at an early death and degraded health because of the chemicals used at the time.

Had Jane Fonda served, I would suspect she would have experienced the same things - assuming that she came back. But she didn't. Instead she apparently called for people to hate veterans, and while that's not illegal, it seems to indicate to me that she just flat-out isn't a good person, or really is too stupid to put two and two together. Like a friend who points and laughs while the schoolyard bully beats you up.

Had she been spending time in South Vietnam, posing with US soldiers but saying the exact same things, my opinion of her would be no different. Freedom of speech also means that you have to deal with the consequences of that speech; all it means is that the government can't legally take action simply because it doesn't like what you said. (Although that's now in doubt)
-C

  

Offline Flipside

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Wow, things have come full circle
I agree with you that someone who is prepared to stand up and say what they believe, no matter how unpopular, must also be prepared to deal with the consequences of that action, however, if a country says 'say what you believe' then it must be prepared to hear things it doesn't want to. Take a look at the number of Iraqis in the recent war whom, whilst living in America, spoke out against Saddam and heralded as heroes for it. Surely they should have been sent back to Iraq to be punished for being so disloyal?

Either America is a Free country or it is not, it's like the 'Free Speech Zones' last time I checked all of America was a Free Speech Zone, either it is or it isn't, there's no 'sort of' Free Speech, or 'Free Speech, as long as you're agreeing with us'.

 

Offline redmenace

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Wow, things have come full circle
Quote
Originally posted by Flipside
I agree with you that someone who is prepared to stand up and say what they believe, no matter how unpopular, must also be prepared to deal with the consequences of that action, however, if a country says 'say what you believe' then it must be prepared to hear things it doesn't want to. Take a look at the number of Iraqis in the recent war whom, whilst living in America, spoke out against Saddam and heralded as heroes for it. Surely they should have been sent back to Iraq to be punished for being so disloyal?

Either America is a Free country or it is not, it's like the 'Free Speech Zones' last time I checked all of America was a Free Speech Zone, either it is or it isn't, there's no 'sort of' Free Speech, or 'Free Speech, as long as you're agreeing with us'.

It is not like she was organizing a protest all by her self with out the support outside sources. Or creating flyers that denounced the war. She helped produced propaganda peices for a foreign Government. She did nothing wrong by speaking out against the war. But going to N.V. and taking certain actions, not only limited simply taking a photo by a 50cal AAA gun with a NVA helmet but other actions as well.

As per the Iraqis in the US, well if they went back to Iraq with Saddam in power they would have to most likly be given a monkey trial and executed since I am sure what they did, would be considered treason. I am making that guess since I don't know the legal system under saddam hussein. But here in the US the Jane Fonda might have been convicted if the US had decided to press charges.

Additionally, ignorance of the effect your actions have is not really a defense and neither is being naiveness
« Last Edit: April 21, 2005, 06:03:56 pm by 887 »
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.
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Offline StratComm

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Wow, things have come full circle
I quite frankly don't see how that reflects on this at all.  The issue at hand isn't a legal one in that sense, but rather one of right and wrong.  If someone wants to be a white supremecist and spout out garbage about how blacks are animals, it's within their constitutional right to do so (until the point they incite violence against blacks).  That doesn't mean he's right, and it certainly doesn't give him a place from which he could ever argue the moral high ground.  The treatment of American soldiers by Jane Fonda, both in the meeting with them and her subsequent actions in the US after the war, were inexcusable from a moral and ethical standpoint, even though she was not acting illegally in making them.  And it's not like she professed the communist cause; she was perfectly happy to come back to the US and live the life of luxury afterwards.  Every other comparison I've seen makes allowances for someone in her position to actually return to her home country, and that's where the legality comes into play.

The issue of treason has nothing to do with what she said, it has to do with the fact that she went to a country with whom we were at war and participated in propoganda designed to demoralize American troops (an action that is designed exclusively to get them killed whether she realized it or not, not to run them out of the country; that's a decision that was out of their hands to begin with).  Speaking against your country within your country is not treason; deliberatly aiding an enemy force, be it through aid, military or financial, or by actively participating in their propoganda, is.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Flipside

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Wow, things have come full circle
Indeed, there are not many countries in the world that would have had the strength of conviction in it's own actions to allow someone to talk like that and return to the same country. Is that conviction fading?

 

Offline redmenace

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Wow, things have come full circle
This isn't about freedom of speech. If it were simply going to a foreign country and protesting the US involvment, it would be about freedom of speech. She wouldn't have committed treason. As per morally wrong, well she owes it to her country to be a bit cynacle about what another government is showing her.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.
              -Frederic Bastiat

 

Offline aldo_14

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Wow, things have come full circle
Quote
Originally posted by redmenace
This isn't about freedom of speech. If it were simply going to a foreign country and protesting the US involvment, it would be about freedom of speech. She wouldn't have committed treason. As per morally wrong, well she owes it to her country to be a bit cynacle about what another government is showing her.


But not her own?

 

Offline Flipside

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Wow, things have come full circle
People owe it to their country to be a bit cynical about what their own government is showing them, but not nearly enough people are.

We're all morons at one point or another in our life, Ms Fonda is a bigger moron than most, I'm not denying that, but Jane Fonda was far from the only one, some of you here might have parents who spat at Vets when they returned home, but America still respected them.

I'm not trying to defend Jane Fonda the person, I know my opinion of the British Politician who tried to make the Middle East rise against British and American troops, he's a piece of ****e not for thinking the War is wrong, but for encouraging bloodshed, and I can fully understand Americans feeling the same way about this woman. But if you want to be the America you claim to be, then you have to put up with her and her point of view, just as we have to put up, not only with that politician, but with a plethora of people who would be against the wall in less tolerant cultures, simply for their views.

 

Offline WMCoolmon

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Wow, things have come full circle
Well, at this point I don't see a real point in locking her up (or executing her, which I think is applicable under treason). Considering the administration it would set a horrible precedent, and I would rather see the country put Vietnam behind it.

While she may have been affecting morale (and probably affected lives), I doubt you could measure it in any objective way. She did not even give American troop positions out (Which I believe was recently done in Iraq).

Although what she did may have been extremely stupid and wrong, I don't think it would be in anybody's best interests to lock her up or really prosecute her (under American law).
-C

 

Offline redmenace

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Wow, things have come full circle
Quote
Originally posted by Flipside
People owe it to their country to be a bit cynical about what their own government is showing them, but not nearly enough people are.

I assumed that goes without saying, especially since she was more cynacle than most of the US.

I have no problem with other's opinions. For a matter of fact I have no problem with anti-war protesters or anti-IMF protesters. But when IMF protesters start to run amuk and burning tires on K street in washington dc while using their freedom of speech and freedoms of assembly then they have broken the law. The point I am trying to get across is that speaking out against your country is one thing. But then aiding an enemy in their propaganda efforts is.

I should also point out that she witnessed prisoned beetings as well. But I need to do more checking into that.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.
              -Frederic Bastiat

 

Offline aldo_14

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Wow, things have come full circle
Quote
Originally posted by redmenace

I should also point out that she witnessed prisoned beetings as well. But I need to do more checking into that.


I believe that's an urban legend/myth; see the link to snopes I posted on the preceeding pages, which IIRC discounts it.

 

Offline redmenace

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Wow, things have come full circle
well it said the pieces of paper was a farse IIRC

I am not sure about the rest.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.
              -Frederic Bastiat

 

Offline vyper

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Wow, things have come full circle
Quote
Originally posted by redmenace
:lol:

You're not the first to want to kill me and I am sure you won't be a last.

Why do you insist on making purposefully insulting comments?


I was trying to point out your own attitude is as bad as hers in many ways :p
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline redmenace

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Wow, things have come full circle
Well then say so. Don't mask your point in the guise of and personal insult. However, I am alot wiser than I used to be concerning what the gov't tells me. Especially since I decided not to vote for President Bush in 2004.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.
              -Frederic Bastiat

 

Offline vyper

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Wow, things have come full circle
I'll mask it any damned way i want - I refuse to take debates on here seriously any more. :p
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14