[WMCoolmon]

What Prefect said.

[Corsair]

Descartes' argument is full of holes. We pulled it to pieces in debate class one night... it's really a rather poor argument.

Anyway, on topic.

Yeah, I think this is all ridiculous... doesn't anybody remember when William Jennings Bryan made a fool of himself the first time around? I mean sure, maybe the Protoss are these intelligent beings that are being referred to here, but somehow I doubt it. And if it's not the Protoss, then it must be God and that means we're teaching the Bible in public schools... oops! I'm pretty sure the country already dealt with that one too.

[Ford Prefect]

It's such an absurdly simple conclusion, though. If there is thought, something has to exist! You can wonder all you want about whether it's all an illusion or whether we're living in a giant's nose, but no matter what, thought must exist in order for it to exist.

[Nuke]

the problem is that we dont know what thought really is, nor do we know what existance really is. to assume corelation or causation between the two is an act of lunacy.

[WMCoolmon]

I always thought that Descartes was referring to the idea of conscioussness/existence.

You think, therefore your thoughts must...be.

Otherwise you couldn't think.

[Ford Prefect]

WMCoolmon WINS THE PRIZE! That is exactly what it means! The debate is difficult not because of the nature of existence but because of the limitations of our grammatical structures. The verb "to be" does not describe the state in which something "is". It is simply a logical tool that says, "The void contains something." Whether we are all in a dream or plugged into machines or whatever the hell you believe, to think is to be able to positively prove to oneself that something "is". It is the most maddeningly, grammar-defyingingly self-evident concept there is.

[Nuke]

do people really think, or is thinking just a random proscess no different that say nuclear fusion or fire. the apearance that i think doesnt give me the faintest clue that i actually exist. my willfull attempts at failure always tend to fail. if my thoughts controled what i do i would have certainly have failed by now. the universe in itself, when all equations are drawn will alwayse come out to the same constant. an unchanging thing is as good as nothing

[Ford Prefect]

It doesn't matter! It's still a process! It's still a thing to which we assign pronouns and place in sentences! If it did not exist we could not assign it operative terms or even discuss it because it would not be! It simply proves itself.

[Nuke]

process is a fallacy, change is a fallacy

[Ford Prefect]

So don't call it a process. Call it a thing, a widget, a agioejhwapogiejwp! Words are just the way we bring about the existence of a concept.

[Nuke]

words are indeed meaningless.

[Taristin]

As is this thread.

[Ford Prefect]

This is called philosophy, Raa. It's one of the few things that truly separate us from the animals.

[Nuke]

and the rest of the so called universe

[Nuke]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
This is called philosophy, Raa. It's one of the few things that truly separate us from the animals.

actually my cat is a nihilist too.

[Ford Prefect]

Really? I've been getting transcendentalist vibes from mine.

[Taristin]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
This is called philosophy, Raa. It's one of the few things that truly separate us from the animals.

Tis still pointless, since we're all flogging the dead horse.

[Nuke]

so we killed the horse, bbq anyone ?

[EtherShock]

I think, therefore I am. This can be taken on many different levels.

My cat is a hedonist.

[Ford Prefect]

Hell yes! I think we can all agree that nothing beats hedonism.