[NGTM-1R]

Also, all five of the Shivan's appendages appear to end in "hands", IE, they can be used for gripping things.

[FireCrack]

V just said that waht we were seeing were actual shivans, not that they didnt have any cybernetic apendages or anything.

[StratComm]

Basically all they really said is that shivans aren't actually some little thing in a suit.  And it makes sense that the GTVA would know this, because they have had live Shivan subjects that would almost certainly have been scanned/disected.

[TrashMan]

I concluded that Shivans didn't build their ships, but rather someone else is building them for them..

Think about it - how can ANY race, no matter how intelligent it is, create sophisticated minitarized equipment wiht shivan-like claws???

Heck, try building even the simplest of objects without using fingers and you'll see what I mean...

[Jal-18]

Just because our minds aren't used to claws doesn't mean the Shivans don't find them useful.  That's like stating "How can any animal use echolocation?  Try walking around with your eyes closed and screaming at the top of your lungs and you'll see what I mean..."

[FireCrack]

The shivans appear to have 4 opposeable digits on each arm...

[NGTM-1R]

It looks like three to me...

[Mefustae]

That's always a problem i've had with almost every Alien in any game or movie, that they almost always have these giant Claws. A good example is in the first Predator movie, you see the Pred operating some of his equiptment close up with these gigantic claws, which looks unbelieveably sophisticated, and yet with the claws it handles it in a very cumbersome manner.
Let's face it, any intelligent Alien we discover that has managed interstellar or even intrasteller travel will NOT have gigantic claws!

[phatosealpha]

Unless they have four arms, two of which have well manicured nails and two of which end in foul disembowling devices that would make a tiger say "Hey man, you need a trim."  Or, unless, you know, they were advanced enough to have claws and make their machinery claw operated instead of fingertip operated.

[TrashMan]

A claw is not sensitive enough as a finger.

Thatz is not something you use for delicate work ....try to handle a microchip with a claw..even the slightest increase in pressure and it will break (no to mention claws are like nails - you have no sense of touch in them ..no nerves )... human fingers are soft and highly sensitive to touch.

[Taristin]

Says a man with a finger.

None of us can possibly comprehend how delicate or precise a claw can be, since none of us have had one since birth.

[FireCrack]

^Exectly!

[Boomer]

Actually, if the Shivans live in zero-gravity, which they most likely do, they wouldn't have Five legs, but Five arms. I mean, think of a Human in long term Zero-Gravity, up there, your legs have absolutely no use (apart from pushing youself off panels, etc.) and would likely have them replaced with two more arms, like a Primate, as legs in Zero-G are just a waste of space...

The arms have to be strong enough to withstand gravity.  Being in space not withstanding, whenever one turns in space one experiences G-forces.  It would be nigh on impossible for the shivans to evolve without a predisposed segment of their body to bear weight, which would most likely be the side with the three legs as opposed to two.  Plus, it's easier to work with two appendages as primary manipulating digits as opposed to three due to a wonderful thing known as symmetry.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by TrashMan
I concluded that Shivans didn't build their ships, but rather someone else is building them for them..

Think about it - how can ANY race, no matter how intelligent it is, create sophisticated minitarized equipment wiht shivan-like claws???

Heck, try building even the simplest of objects without using fingers and you'll see what I mean...

http://descent-freespace.com/goodies/gallery/species/svm0001.jpg
http://descent-freespace.com/goodies/gallery/species/svm0002.jpg
http://descent-freespace.com/goodies/gallery/species/svm0003.jpg
http://descent-freespace.com/goodies/gallery/species/svm0004.jpg
(as a reference)

If you look at the top 'arms', they do have at least 3 'fingers' on each.  And similarly (albeit thicker and possibly less accurate) they have 3 on the 'legs'.  The 'claw' (or whatever it is) itself flicks out anyways, so it's not in the way.  The only actual limb that is structured like a leg is the central back one.... the other 4 limbs don't rest on a 'heel' or anything (see the 3rd piccy linked).

Likewise, they could simply not use limbs/digits atall and use some electromagnetic technology of some sort.

So IMO it's far from impossible for them to build ships or complicated tech.  Maybe it's even easier for them to build, if they have 4 sets of manipulatable digits (and an inbuilt saw+welding laser?).

[NGTM-1R]

They're rather large, though, not suited for fine work...the Shivans probably rely more heavily on automation in construction and repair work then Terrans or Vasudans.

Actually, that helps account for their numerical superiority, in a small way. They have more personnel free for combat duty as opposed to logistics.

[Boomer]

No, think about it: Today we have robotic appendages with the delicacy to pick up a tea cup, and the power to crush rock.  All the Shivans would need is a fine tuned sense of feeling.

Plus, if their carapace is mechanical, who's to say they don't have some more sensitive digits?  What we say may just be their form of Combat suits.

[NGTM-1R]

Originally posted by Boomer
No, think about it: Today we have robotic appendages with the delicacy to pick up a tea cup, and the power to crush rock.  All the Shivans would need is a fine tuned sense of feeling.

Faulty metaphor: though cybernetic, the Shivans' control system (read: brain) is biological, and as such rather sloppy. In addition, it is simply more difficult to handle small objects with bigger manipulators. You can put that down as a law of nature. In the most basic terms, a Shivan can't reach inside your desktop to replace a faulty component. It's hands and arms are too large. A Human or Vasudan can. A Shivan would have to take it completely apart.

did state that what we are seeing in Hallfight are the Shivans...and given the capture of the Taranis, at least one Azreal transport, and at least a small number of live Shivans (plus probably a large number of dead ones) it seems likely any alternate form would have been noted by the GTA/GTVI, and such information distributed.

[Kie99]

How do you know the Shivan brain is biological?

[aldo_14]

More importantly, how do you know it's sloppy?  Extrapolation from game AI isn't exactly a good judge.

EDIT; if that's what your using.... because obviously using human or earth-based life isn't the best way to assess an aliens possible physiology.

How do you know, for example, that the Shivans don't have some form of small electromagnetic field they can emit from their fingers for fine manipulation?  Or perhaps they simply don't use small components - maybe their tech is biological in nature, or simply built on a different 'smallest part' scale.

Or perhaps they simply have fingers-within-fingers that extend from the larger digits for fine tasks; it's scarcely unprecendented given the 'hidden' blade and beam weapon they have.

[NGTM-1R]

How do you know the Shivan brain is biological?

Because the Shivans have expressly been stated by to not be robots, that's how. They might be cyborgs, but they have biological brains and other biological systems. Surely if they had electronic brains that would have been mentioned in the intel briefings in the games? It seems like a rather important piece of information.

More to the point, if they had electronic brains they would in a sense be even more vunerable. You can't EMP a biological brain.

Originally posted by aldo_14

EDIT; if that's what your using.... because obviously using human or earth-based life isn't the best way to assess an aliens possible physiology.

That argument sounds nice, but it's invalid. Earth-based life, all of it, fits into those descriptions. If it were possible  for life to evolve unsloppy, why did it not do so? Life evolved as it did because it provides some concrete advantage, otherwise it would have evolved differently. Unless the Shivans some evolved from completely different origins, and they did not since I cannot imagine it would not have been mentioned that they were tungsten-based or something, the argument does not hold water.