[aldo_14]

Originally posted by ngtm1r

That argument sounds nice, but it's invalid. Earth-based life, all of it, fits into those descriptions. If it were possible  for life to evolve unsloppy, why did it not do so? Life evolved as it did because it provides some concrete advantage, otherwise it would have evolved differently. Unless the Shivans some evolved from completely different origins, and they did not since I cannot imagine it would not have been mentioned that they were tungsten-based or something, the argument does not hold water.

Eh?  What makes you think Shivans evolved in conditions anything like Earth atall - or that Earth life follows the 'general model' of biological life, if there is indeed such a thing (or even if it would apply within the Freespace universe).

The term alien inherently implies a different evolutionary environment, differently evolutionary pressures - i.e. where natural selection will work in a different way.  Earth life only evolved in the way it's possible or necessary for life to evolve on Earth.  It's a massive fallacy to assume life on Earth is the only way life can arise and develop.

More importantly, what makes you think biological brains are designed in a sloppy way?  I mean, you seem to be alright operating a computer - now imagine your brain with possibly millions more years of potential evolution, and potentially augmented with cybernetic or genetic engineering technology.

How many earth animals have 5 limbs, cybernetic additions, a fully powered plasma cannon (or similar) as part of their body and fly in spaceships?  I'd wager none - so where's the valid comparison between that & Shivans?

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by Raa
Says a man with a finger.

None of us can possibly comprehend how delicate or precise a claw can be, since none of us have had one since birth.

In order for a claw to be used as a weapon or to be able to tear trough armor (like shivan claws) it must be shar and hard as hell.
Thus, it's not soft..

And again, it does not have nerves in them (just like our nails). If it did, it wouldn't be a claw.
In order to fel pressure on your skin it has to be soft to detect touch and pressure. Claws are not.

simple logic..


@Aldo - Shivan fingers are huge and thick..not suited for work on miniature equipment...
And spare me the electromagnetic field with which they move things.
First, to achive smooth and precise movements, such field should be eEXTREEMLY advanced and complex.

Secondly some eqipmewnt is sensitive to electomagnetic fields. Try to build a PC using such fields....

Third - where does that field origingate from?
To build such a field emmiter would again require highly precisse and small eqipment.
and hard to belive they were born with it...

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by TrashMan


@Aldo - Shivan fingers are huge and thick..not suited for work on minature equipment...
And spare me the electromagnetic field with which they move things.
First, to acheive smooth and precise movements, such a field should be EXTREMELY advanced and complex.

Secondly some equipment is sensitive to electromagnetic fields. Try to build a PC using such fields....

Third - where does that field originate from?
To build such a field emitter would again require highly precise and small equipment.
and hard to belive they were born with it...

Firstly; what makes you think Shivan tech has to be minature?  And if they did use EM, why are you making assumptions that they can't create complex fields? Humans have anti-gravity, after all, and the Shivans were in space before the time of the Pharoahs.

Secondly;  Some human equipment is EM sensitive.  Any race which uses EM to control or manipulate equipment, would obviously build equipment that was EM immune.  I would have thought that'd be common-sense logic, really........

Thirdly; probably in the same way humans have evolved from hand assembly to developing robots that can assemble silicon wafers, etc,  at a level beyond we can operate.  We already work with things on a far, far smaller level than we could physically manipulate; by your standard the human race shouldn't be able to fabricate microprocessors.

Of course, the human body by nature creates a small amount of electricity.... as the Shivans appear to capable of creating a far larger amount and controlling it (beam weapon on Shivan), it's scarcely implausible IMO that they could harness electromagnetic (or other electrical based) control methods (properties indicating possible "organic artificial fusion").

(given that i'm talking about a purely theoretical field emitter built by an alien race of which we have no info, within a setting where technology has advanced far beyond current understanding, i find it hard to see how you can assume how they'd build it, or what they'd use to do so)

Anyways, what makes you think the Shivans always had 'big fingers'?  What with their carapace not (apparently) "original to the creature's physiognomy" - tis quite possible as part of evolving to this stage, the Shivans developed tools to overcome any physical limitations.

[Carl]

Guys, remember that Shivans are cyborgs. the claws could be tech that is covering smaller, more sensitive appendages.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
That argument sounds nice, but it's invalid. Earth-based life, all of it, fits into those descriptions. If it were possible  for life to evolve unsloppy, why did it not do so? Life evolved as it did because it provides some concrete advantage, otherwise it would have evolved differently.

What you describe is an incorrect caricature of natural selection. Once evolution has started down a path it is often far too expensive (in terms of required mutations) for a reverse to occur.

If life on Earth has "sloppy" brains (and I really don't believe it does) it's very possible that it took that path simply because that was the route evolution started down.

You can't simply say that if a certain adaptation would be better it would have evolved. The cells in the retina for instance are in back to front and would do a much better job the other way round. Don't see them turning round though just because of that.

[Cyker]

And they might not have built their ships - Maybe the ships are not really ships, but Big Mommy Shivans

A claw can be surprisingly sensitive - While they do not contain any nerves, they will have to be connected to some fleshy bit at some point and at that point you can have lots of nerve bundles.

Our own nails are a case in point - The nerves under them are sensitive enough to detect pressure on the nail; Not as much as direct contact with a finger, but enough that you could pick something up with your nails without crushing it.

Ask a chick with really long fingernals

[Jal-18]

I enjoy all the assumptions certain people are making about a completely alien race, evolving from completely differant standards then us, with a completely differant biological make-up.  Really shows why the human race is able to get along so nicely and extraordinarily well with itself, and how we're obviously ready to meet another alien race.

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by aldo_14


Firstly; what makes you think Shivan tech has to be minature?  And if they did use EM, why are you making assumptions that they can't create complex fields? Humans have anti-gravity, after all, and the Shivans were in space before the time of the Pharoahs.

Assuming they can use complex fields...that would explain their slow evoultion (they haven't changed allmost at all for thousands of years)
It would take longer for a race to achive the same tech level as us with such handicaps....

Secondly;  Some human equipment is EM sensitive.  Any race which uses EM to control or manipulate equipment, would obviously build equipment that was EM immune.  I would have thought that'd be common-sense logic, really.....

And physics tells me that some complex processes will ALLWAYS be sensitive to EM or impossible to achive using EM manipulation

And don't forget that building complex robots to handle miniature equpment requires microchips and sensitive tech...which in tun requires microchips to be resistant to EM...wich in tun requires miniature equipment to provide such isolation..
Quite a merry-go-round, isn't it?

Thirdly; probably in the same way humans have evolved from hand assembly to developing robots that can assemble silicon wafers, etc,  at a level beyond we can operate.  We already work with things on a far, far smaller level than we could physically manipulate; by your standard the human race shouldn't be able to fabricate microprocessors.

Granted...but then again, we don't use EM fields to maniputale EM sensitive equipment...


Be it as it may, you are basing a lot of your assumption on things about shivans we never seen.
I on the other hand, base them on what we seen.

We seen their huge "hands" and claws in cutscenes.

We never saw any EM fields....and if they could use EM fields to manipulate objects, why charge the marines when you can lift them from a distance with that field and hurl them towards a wall?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by TrashMan


Assuming they can use complex fields...that would explain their slow evoultion (they haven't changed allmost at all for thousands of years)
It would take longer for a race to achive the same tech level as us with such handicaps....

What makes you think they've not evolved anyways?  We've not even seen all the Shivans tech to judge how evolved they are.

And, of course, if they have been the dominant species for the last 8000+ years, they probably don't have a need to evolve (no 'natural selection' to force development).

Originally posted by TrashMan

And physics tells me that some complex processes will ALLWAYS be sensitive to EM or impossible to achive using EM manipulation

And we're operating in an FS universe that has physics (i.e. subspace) beyond existing theory.

Originally posted by TrashMan
And don't forget that building complex robots to handle miniature equpment requires microchips and sensitive tech...which in tun requires microchips to be resistant to EM...wich in tun requires miniature equipment to provide such isolation..
Quite a merry-go-round, isn't it?

Again, you're making assumptions based on human technology scale and organization.  Firstly, if the Shivans initially evolved in an 'EM-rich' environment, they wouldn't have even considered unshielded technology; everything would have been developed from scratch.  Also, there's the possibility of biological based technology inparticular; engineering and growing tools rather than manufacturing.  Not to mention that we don't know the Shivans initial form; it may be that their original physiology was more than suitable for 21st century level manufacturing, but their eventual cybernetic enhancement was paralleled by changes in manufacturing technology that completely removed any need for 'manual' control and thus removed the whole issue of dexterity from the equation.

Originally posted by TrashMan
Granted...but then again, we don't use EM fields to maniputale EM sensitive equipment...

We're not travelling in space either; move forward 300 years and IMO it's a fairer comparison.  We don't use EM fields because we don't have them; hence we have no need to develop resistant equipment.

However, we have developed machines that build machines, that build machines on a nano-meter scale.  i.e. our technology has allowed us to work on levels which are not permitted by our manual dexterity.

Originally posted by TrashMan
Be it as it may, you are basing a lot of your assumption on things about shivans we never seen.
I on the other hand, base them on what we seen.

Except you're making assumptions equally as broad (and I'm only suggesting plausible alternatives that cannot be discounted based on evidence, in order to show there's no singular 'proven' conclusion to be made); that Shivan technology is analogous to ours in terms and scale and organisation; that Shivan physics is the same level as 21st century human physics understanding; that Shivans aren't capable of augmenting themselves as they already have with weaponry; and most crucially that Shivan technological or biological 'evolution' can be quantatively judged based on what it shown in FS1 & 2.

Originally posted by TrashMan
We seen their huge "hands" and claws in cutscenes.

Claws don't count - they're retractable, and themselves could actually be tools (indeed, the plasma weapon/whatever in the shoulder could be a welding beam similar to that seen on the drones/builder ships in the Colossus cutscene).

Now, the fingers aren't actually that big - if you compare them to a human/vasudan hand, the digits on the smaller hand in particular aren't any more than twice the size; probably about gorilla size.  

Not to mention that dexterity is not determined by finger size anyways; it's set by muscle control, brain & nervous system control, and the flexibility of the joints.  Assuming that means the Shivans can't assemble complex equipment is wrong, because most human equipment now - and before - doesn't use our fingers in that sense.

We use tools.  So can the Shivans.

Originally posted by TrashMan
We never saw any EM fields....and if they could use EM fields to manipulate objects, why charge the marines when you can lift them from a distance with that field and hurl them towards a wall?

Why would having a short-range EM field entail having an unlimited power long-range EM field?  The Shivans have beam cannons mounted upon themselves, yet only one used it in Hallfight; just because we have one video of 3 Shivans fighting an hitherto unknown enemy doesn't mean you know every tactic they have, or every technology they can use... or anything, really.

My point is, you can't draw a conclusion that can't be contradicated by the simple fact that there is little or no evidence to support any conclusion, and plenty of reasons why it can be wrong.  i personally dislike the 'manufactured Shivans' idea as IMO it's a way of shifting the explanation to somewhere else rather than answering it.

[EtherShock]

All I have to say is, I doubt every creature in the universe is going to evolve in the same manner that humans have. It would be convenient, but highly unlikely. This is uniliniear evolution theory most of you are talking about, but on an organic level, a huge fallacy.

[Boomer]

All right, new scenario to explain the claws...

When a human encounters a hostile enemy in close quarters, they would typically make a fist to not only inflict damage, but to protect the more sensitive and individually vulnerable fingers.

Think about it:  You can easily incapacitate someone if you break all their fingers; if you go for a fist however, you're pretty much SOL.

So, since any shivans that Terrans encountered would be met in a combat situation, thusly, the smaller more vulnerable medium of manipulation, (be it a finger, or an EM field), would be instantly retracted in favor of the more blunt and dangerous Shivan "Fist."  (and I use that term loosely).

As for evolution, think about this: The Shivans have been around long enough to wipe out MILLIONS of races.  Millions of those, in fact, had to come before the ancients.  The Shivans have had plenty of time in which to naturally or artificialy induce any evolutionary quirks they found necessary.

[TrashMan]

Allright...how about this

In theory everything is possible... but the question is - how possible..

My theory is far more relistic than yours  Aldo, as yours is really far fetched, balancing at the edge of logic and science...

But... statistic is just that..statistic 1:1000000000000 odds really don't mean much if youre the 1, now does it?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by TrashMan
Allright...how about this

In theory everything is possible... but the question is - how possible..

My theory is far more relistic than yours  Aldo, as yours is really far fetched, balancing at the edge of logic and science...

But... statistic is just that..statistic 1:1000000000000 odds really don't mean much if youre the 1, now does it?

I debate your definitining of 'realism' in such an arbitrary way; that's my point.  

I don't believe what you're saying is really any more definitive, supported or plausible than any alternate theory, because your only real source of evidence is an assumption based on finger size.  So.... I don't think it's far-fetched to suggest the Shivans are capable of building their own ships, and there are a number of possible ways - even if you assume finger dexterity is some kind of barrier to an advanced civillisation - IMO in which they could.

I don't think you have a definitive proven conclusion, that's my point.  You have your theory; it's not any more or less plausible than any I or anyone else could make up.

[Flipside]

I believe in the basic Vulcanesque philosophy of infinite diversity in an infinite universe. If the universe is infinitely big, then anything has somewhere to happen

[TrashMan]

But it is...

I'm not talking realism in the basic sense of the word...I'm talking about likellhood or chances of that happening..

And no..bad finger dexterity is no problem for an advanced race, but reaching and advanced stage is...

My point is - in order for any race to advance it has to have fine-tuned manipulators.
From what we seen of the shivans, they don't have them. Note that the gTVA have disected and studied shivans...the techroom clearly sez (and the DEVs) what you see is them.

There is no evidence for hidden maipulators or EM fields...

and if you call that belivable as my theory, then try this -
the universe was created by me farting...for I am in reality an omipotnent being that was border to hell so I created the universe from my gases. Is this an equally valid theory as the big bang or something else?
According to you, it is - since we don't know for sure what happened there you can't dissprove my words...

[Jal-18]

Why does another race necessarily have to follow the evolutionary path that humans did?  Do you realize what a massive coincidence the human body is?

[Mongoose]

Why would the Shivans have necessarily had to manipulate fine objects, or even more generally, why must they have necessarily evolved at all?  For all we know, the Shivans were a designer species.  The Volition folks did say that the Shivans were symptoms of a "bigger problem;" as I've heard suggested a few times before, what if that bigger problem was another, older species?  What if the Shivans were nothing more than shock troops?  The combination of biology and cybernetics would suggest that someone had to have modified them in some way, and if it wasn't the Shivans themselves, it had to be another race.  If, say, all of the Shivans' vessels were built for them, or if their production were completely automated in some form, the Shivans would have never had to worry about fine manipulation at all.  If you were going to build a race of (possibly) hive-minded killing machines, I doubt you'd give them delicate and manipulative digits; the bigass claws would be a much more effective option.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by TrashMan
But it is...

I'm not talking realism in the basic sense of the word...I'm talking about likellhood or chances of that happening..

And no..bad finger dexterity is no problem for an advanced race, but reaching and advanced stage is...

My point is - in order for any race to advance it has to have fine-tuned manipulators.
From what we seen of the shivans, they don't have them. Note that the gTVA have disected and studied shivans...the techroom clearly sez (and the DEVs) what you see is them.

There is no evidence for hidden maipulators or EM fields...

But the Shivans have altered themselves with cybernetic implants anyways, so their physical form has not been constant across their species evolution.

Again, you should notice that in the case of humanity, technological advancements in the form of robotic assembly, etc, have rendered finger dexterity unimportant in terms of technology.  Your assuming the Shivans couldn't reach that boundary in their current physical 'configuration', but even if that was true, it doesn't preclude them doing so in whatever their original physical arrangement was.

As the techroom says 'Their insect like carapace does not appear original to the creature's physiognomy, suggesting the Shivans are a cybernetic fusion of biology and technology'.

You'll also note neither the techroom(s) nor AFAIK the developers ever stated or even hinted the Shivans didn't make their own ships.  It implies the possibility the Shivans themselves were manufactured by another race, not their ships.  In that case, it's probably more likely the Shivans can build and fix ships - why build a private army that has to run back home to get its ships repaired and replaced every time it gets in a scrap?

Originally posted by TrashMan
and if you call that belivable as my theory, then try this -
the universe was created by me farting...for I am in reality an omipotnent being that was border to hell so I created the universe from my gases. Is this an equally valid theory as the big bang or something else?
According to you, it is - since we don't know for sure what happened there you can't dissprove my words...

Actually, that's a particularly stupid analogy because there is constant information being gathered of the creation of the universe; I believe they've been monitoring microwave signals dating up to the first few nano-seconds after the big bang (cosmic background radiation transformed into microwaves as a result of time & distance).

For a theory to be considered equally valid it would require supporting evidence, sufficient to match the leading theories.

[Boomer]

A designer race?  

That's brilliant...  That would explain why the Shivans don't seem to have any sort of scientific community or interest in making peace!  Why would they be interested in a share of knowledge if they were specifically designed for one particular purpose and given all the tools to complete this task after their creation.

On second thought let me revise that: the Shivans haven't changed their basic technology because they haven't had to before now since their overwhelming technological gave them a lethal advantage in combat that no race until now has been able to cope with.

[EtherShock]

I agree with this. No competition = no innovation. It's just like business.