[StratComm]

I think it's pretty clear that the GTVA didn't know the Knossos was there beforehand.  Now they may have moved the prototype Meson bombs into the region in order to shut it down, should the need arise, after the Shivan threat was first discovered.  However, everything in the game simply points to Bosch finding out about the knossos and how to activate it from Ancient records and sending a special ship, previously ostensibly loyal to the GTVA, to turn it on and make contact with the Shivans.  Bosch's prior knowledge of it is pretty clear, but I doubt he got any of that knowledge from GTVA command.

[WMCoolmon]

I meant that the Shivan ships warped in and Command sent ships to investigate. I really doubt there was only 24 hours for Command to prepare for something *big* to come through the node.

Command may have been overconfident but it wasn't that overconfident.

[Cobra]

nah, i don't think it was overconfidence. just plain stupidity. all they could have done was shut down the portal, and the Gamma Draconis-Nebula jump node wouldn't have been stabilized and the Sathanas wouldn't have came to GTVA space.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Cobra
nah, i don't think it was overconfidence. just plain stupidity. all they could have done was shut down the portal, and the Gamma Draconis-Nebula jump node wouldn't have been stabilized and the Sathanas wouldn't have came to GTVA space.

And just how do you shut down the portal Cobra? Bosch maybe knew how but he took the information into the nebula with him.

On top of that who says that the node wasn't stabilised during the thousands of years the knossos was in "power saving mode"?

[Boomer]

More like residual centripetal motion.

Not quite Goob.  The existence of centripetal force is completely qualitative.  i.e.  There are no physical manifestations of centripetal force in the universe (as we know it anyway) and besides, you forgot about inertia:

Objects at rest want to stay at rest, objects in motion want to stay in motion.  

And Newtons 2nd law (I think):

An object going on a set course will not deviate from that course unless acted upon by a net force.

When the Meson Bombs went off, they threw off the mechanical precision that kept the Knossos traveling in a circle, when this happened, the pieces would continue in the last direction in which they were going, and without the net force evident in the intact knossos, they should have flown off.

Its like spinning on one of those rotating things in the park and then letting go.

Finally, I believe that any "centripetal force" would be quickly overcome by the centrifigul force due to the fact that it is favored by the all powerful forces of thermodynamics.

It is easier for the pieces to spread outward than to try to congregate in one space, therefore, the thermodynamic process favors the flying of the pieces away from each other.

Ahhh...  Macro chemistry...

[EtherShock]

Originally posted by Boomer
Its like spinning on one of those rotating things in the park and then letting go.

They're called merry go-rounds. Yeah, they look nothing like them, considered dangerous nowadays.

[Boomer]

Oh, yeah.  I realized that about five minutes after submitting the post and couldn't get to a computer.  I was hoping to get back before anyone replied.....

[Flipside]

I always called 'em roundabouts, but then, we used to sit on the roundabout and sharpen ice-lolly sticks on the tarmac, kind of like sitting on a sharpening wheel and spinning the world

[Fade Rathnik]

Ahh my daily dose of fine english slang.

[FireCrack]

Originally posted by Boomer


Not quite Goob.  The existence of centripetal force is completely qualitative.  i.e.  There are no physical manifestations of centripetal force in the universe (as we know it anyway) and besides, you forgot about inertia:

Objects at rest want to stay at rest, objects in motion want to stay in motion.  

And Newtons 2nd law (I think):

An object going on a set course will not deviate from that course unless acted upon by a net force.

When the Meson Bombs went off, they threw off the mechanical precision that kept the Knossos traveling in a circle, when this happened, the pieces would continue in the last direction in which they were going, and without the net force evident in the intact knossos, they should have flown off.

Its like spinning on one of those rotating things in the park and then letting go.

Finally, I believe that any "centripetal force" would be quickly overcome by the centrifigul force due to the fact that it is favored by the all powerful forces of thermodynamics.

It is easier for the pieces to spread outward than to try to congregate in one space, therefore, the thermodynamic process favors the flying of the pieces away from each other.

Ahhh...  Macro chemistry...

Centripital force indeed does exist and has many manifestations, the centripital force on our moon comes from earths gravity, on a roller coaster it comes from contact with the rails.

Centrifugal force, on the other hand, is not real, it's an imaginary force that is said to be equal to centripital force and in the opposite direction.

Though it's likely you just got the names confused.



And while the peices should spread apart, ingfame they dont, they fly together.

[Boomer]

Centripital force indeed does exist and has many manifestations, the centripital force on our moon comes from earths gravity, on a roller coaster it comes from contact with the rails.

Ouch.  I need to learn to check my wording TWICE before a post.  My bad.  

(That's what I get for reading a physics book from the 60's...)

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Boomer
Not quite Goob.  The existence of centripetal force is completely qualitative.  i.e.  There are no physical manifestations of centripetal force in the universe (as we know it anyway) and besides, you forgot about inertia:

Objects at rest want to stay at rest, objects in motion want to stay in motion.  

And Newtons 2nd law (I think):

An object going on a set course will not deviate from that course unless acted upon by a net force.

As FireCrack said, you may have confused centripetal force with centrifugal force (which is the force that "doesn't exist" as such).  Having taken physics in high school and college, I'm quite familiar with both concepts.

And please read my comments in context.  I wasn't arguing for a specific physical model so much as wondering why the Knossos acted the way it did.

When the Meson Bombs went off, they threw off the mechanical precision that kept the Knossos traveling in a circle, when this happened, the pieces would continue in the last direction in which they were going, and without the net force evident in the intact knossos, they should have flown off.

This is what the pieces should have done.  It's not what we see in game, and this is what FireCrack, aldo, and I (and others) were speculating about.

In suggesting "residual centripetal motion" I thought that the destruction of the Knossos caused the pieces to stop rotating.  Since they came to a halt, they had no inertia keeping them from falling toward the center of the node.

Another possibility is that the Knossos was pushing the pieces outward rather than pulling them inward.  In this case, the pieces would be moving much more slowly than their orbital velocity.  If an unstable subspace node exerts a strong centripetal force, than the only way to keep the Knossos pieces at that radius is to 1) rotate them extremely quickly (which may not be conducive to stablizing a node), or 2) counteract that force to some extent and rotate them more slowly.  Perhaps the Knossos counteracts that force when it's operating; therefore when it stops operating, the pieces are sucked inward.

[Boomer]

In suggesting "residual centripetal motion" I thought that the destruction of the Knossos caused the pieces to stop rotating. Since they came to a halt, they had no inertia keeping them from falling toward the center of the node.

I see what you mean now.  I had to sketch it out to get the correct image.  That would work.  However, that doesn't explain why the shockwaves from both the Meson warheads and the explosion caused by the Knossos tearing itself apart didn't send it flying outward initially and then slowing down.

Another possibility is that the Knossos was pushing the pieces outward rather than pulling them inward. In this case, the pieces would be moving much more slowly than their orbital velocity. If an unstable subspace node exerts a strong centripetal force, than the only way to keep the Knossos pieces at that radius is to 1) rotate them extremely quickly (which may not be conducive to stablizing a node), or 2) counteract that force to some extent and rotate them more slowly. Perhaps the Knossos counteracts that force when it's operating; therefore when it stops operating, the pieces are sucked inward.

And 2 points I'd like to make on this.
1st)  Isn't centripital force varied inversely to velocity?  If so, then unstable jump nodes that appear at random (the tech room said that some only lasted a few seconds) would have a severe effect on ships nearby when they appeared.  I'm not sure if the above assumptions are correct so let me know if I'm wrong.

2nd)  There hasn't been any proof that subspace nodes (even unstable ones) interact with normal space in any physical way except when matter is vibrating at the n-dimensional frequency.  And if they did, would the effect not be more pronounced with stable jump nodes?

While I'm putting forth rampant speculation, I would like to give an alternative that might plausibly support Goobers hypothesis:

The Knossos itself is vibrating at or extremely close to the n-dimensional frequency.  They wouldn't go into subspace because they're not quite on the dot, but they'd be close enough to have an influence on subspace.

And.... Yes, for the moment I'm done rambling.  Let the dissection commence!!

[Cobra]

Originally posted by karajorma


And just how do you shut down the portal Cobra? Bosch maybe knew how but he took the information into the nebula with him.

On top of that who says that the node wasn't stabilised during the thousands of years the knossos was in "power saving mode"?

if you recall, Admiral Petrarch said that they would keep the portal active while prof. hargrove's team studied the knossos, so they must have at least known how to shut it down.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Boomer
And 2 points I'd like to make on this.
1st)  Isn't centripital force varied inversely to velocity?  If so, then unstable jump nodes that appear at random (the tech room said that some only lasted a few seconds) would have a severe effect on ships nearby when they appeared.  I'm not sure if the above assumptions are correct so let me know if I'm wrong.

I'm not sure which 'velocity' you're talking about, but given F=ma (or F=mv/s) it's not inversely proportional.  An unstable node would, however, generate a strong effect when it appeared, according to the second theory.  That's another gap in our knowledge that we're currently unable to fill.  Whether it's more or less pronounced for stable vs. unstable nodes is anyone's guess.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Cobra
if you recall, Admiral Petrarch said that they would keep the portal active while prof. hargrove's team studied the knossos, so they must have at least known how to shut it down.

Or he simply meant that they wouldn't call in half the fleet and blow it to kingdom come.

It would hardly be active after the fleet reduced it to dust.

Besides let me ask you one thing. If command knew how to turn off the Knossos why bother trying to blow it up in the first place? Surely they would have tried flicking the off switch.

[Kie99]

Originally posted by High Max

Also, I think it's funny when a fighter hits a Knossos and gets knocked away:D. I wonder what the outcome would be if someone used FRED to place a cruiser or larger ship in front of one of the moving parts of a Knossos. Like if I started a mission and 2 seconds into it, a Knossos component hits the warship that is in its line of travel. Someone should try that and see what happens:D

Tried that, the ship vibrates a lot, then it just pops out from inbetween the "blades."

[FireCrack]

Centripital force = ( Mass*Velocity^2 )/Radius

[NGTM-1R]

Originally posted by karajorma

Besides let me ask you one thing. If command knew how to turn off the Knossos why bother trying to blow it up in the first place? Surely they would have tried flicking the off switch.

They wanted to be sure.

"For strategic and scientific reasons"; perhaps they were attempting to gain data that might be useful for their attempts to build a Knossos in Delta Serpentis. It seems the most probable reason to tack a "scientific" on there, since they seemed quite sure the node would destablize.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
"For strategic and scientific reasons"; perhaps they were attempting to gain data that might be useful for their attempts to build a Knossos in Delta Serpentis. It seems the most probable reason to tack a "scientific" on there, since they seemed quite sure the node would destablize.

Read the briefing again.  The "strategic and scientific reasons" were why they used the meson bombs instead of the main guns on their capital ships.  They were going to blow it up regardless.