[redmenace]

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1071202,00.html
Huh interesting, detainee says he is on a hunger strike, takes some water then says, I am not on a hunger strike

http://www.time.com/time/press_releases/article/0,8599,1071230,00.html
This last one is Hilarious. They use Christina Agulera music to torture detainees. OH NO, is that against the Geneva Convention?

[aldo_14]

Sleep deprivation is against the geneva convention as a form of torture, IIRC.

Also so is "Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment".  Such as shaving the head & beard of a devout Arab (see also Article 34; prisoners should be given 'complete latitude' with regards to religious excercise)..

[redmenace]

IIRC they are allowed to pray, they just didn't want him to break into their interrogation time.

[Taristin]

Originally posted by redmenace
They use Christina Agulera music to torture detainees. OH NO, is that against the Geneva Convention?

Damn well should be!

[Deepblue]

BTW, the whole guards peeing on the Koran thing was apparently an accident. A guard was relieving himself outside the facility and some apparently got blown in an air vent, and subsequently into the cell a guy was reading in...

[redmenace]

Old news.

[Rictor]

I don't even bother reading these things anymore. It may very well be unfounded paranoia, but I just go ahead and assume that torture, the real kind, is a matter of course in Gitmo and elsewhere. No self-respecting military would refrain from it.

[redmenace]

Originally posted by Rictor
I don't even bother reading these things anymore. It may very well be unfounded paranoia, but I just go ahead and assume that torture, the real kind, is a matter of course in Gitmo and elsewhere. No self-respecting military would refrain from it.

Didn't I get refered to as absolutly disgusting the other day for making that observation?

No offense intended to you Rictor.

[Taristin]

No... you were chastized for condoning it.....

[redmenace]

Actually I remember saying it didn't violate the Geneva Convention, which I still maintain. I also said all is fair in love and war. I have just come to the conclusion that regaurdless of the conflict, attrocities happen. I try not and kid my self that we can try and curb or prevent it. Now, that does not mean I like, condone, promote or support the use of torture. In fact I stated that the Geneva Convention is archaic and either needs to be anulled or updated to reflect a change in the nature of conflict. As far as I can tell the Geneva Convention is not a "living breathing Document" and needs to be update to reflect modern times as with all laws.

[Rictor]

That's OK, I know I'm disgusting. It hardly bothers me anymore, and people don't flinch nearly as much as they used to.

As for torture, I personally do not condone it, but I think it's stupid for Amnesty et. al. to keep coming out with these "Oh my God, they tottaly mis-treated the Koran" stories, like they're news. Of course they did, and much worse, it's a prison camp. The first step towards preventing it is aknowledging that militaries do torture people, and not act all outraged when it comes to light that inmates aren't recieving their proper dose of Vitamin B every day.

It's sort of like making a big fuss because someone drove faster than the speed limit, and not bothering to check that he has 10 chopped up bodies in his trunk.

The Geneva Conventions aren't too bad, as long as people stick to them. Which they don't of course, cause any half-way intelligent prison wouldn't let Red Cross (or whatever) inspectors within 100 feet of the bloody, mangled prisoners. And even if the world finds out, what exactly is anyone going to do about it. Provided it's not some little Third World ****hole, they can just tell anyone who cares to listen to **** right off and mind their own business.

[redmenace]

Lost Innocence

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by redmenace
Actually I remember saying it didn't violate the Geneva Convention, which I still maintain. I also said all is fair in love and war. I have just come to the conclusion that regaurdless of the conflict, attrocities happen. I try not and kid my self that we can try and curb or prevent it. Now, that does not mean I like, condone, promote or support the use of torture. In fact I stated that the Geneva Convention is archaic and either needs to be anulled or updated to reflect a change in the nature of conflict. As far as I can tell the Geneva Convention is not a "living breathing Document" and needs to be update to reflect modern times as with all laws.

Actually, that's exactly the point; the Geneva Convention was written to set a series of static laws of warfare, which are not subject to revision based on political aims in later years.  There is no change in the nature of conflict referred to; if you mean civillian or irregular terrorists, then there are specific texts in the Geneva convetion which do refer to that; IIRC they place them under - if not classed as PoWs - the civillian legal system of the country of capture.

(NB: the Geneva convention was last updated in 1977 with the 1st & 2nd protocols; I don't think it's that archaic)

What do you think needs to be changed from the Geneva convention, then?

[redmenace]

Do you have a copy of the text?

[aldo_14]

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm / http://www.globalissuesgroup.com/geneva/texts.html

Edit; see also http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/p0703/$File/ICRC_002_0703.PDF!Open (last section in particular; note that this does not exempt nations holding terrorists from humanitarian responsibilities), http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/69MJXC and http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList74/42BCD4D3BEB459ABC1256E51003EAF49
 - the latter 2 in/directly address Gitmo.

(also http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/terrorism?OpenDocument for the whole ICRC docs)

[redmenace]

Now this is why I say it is ambiguous:

2. In cases not covered by this Protocol or by other international agreements, civilians and combatants remain under the protection and authority of the principles of international law derived from established custom, from the principles of humanity and from dictates of public conscience.

I am of the opinion that this should be explicit.

[Janos]

This is nothing more than a frat prank, and an obvious sign of liberal bias in the media. Remember, this all was started by Clinton who approved of nebulous definitions for prisoners - besides, they're terrorists and the information they have is invaluable and could save lives of YOUR sons and daughters! Although the DemocRATs and LIEberals want you to believe this is systematic, no such proof is given. I'd bet the prisoners are more safe in our prison than what they would be if they were free, and we really can't risk to let them loose again. Hillary Clinton and Howard Dean are trying to put our boys in blue in shame, and are undermining the security of our great nation with their hippie talk.

[karajorma]

Obviously the Americans have problems with the "principles of humanity" bit then?

It's so typical of the US to attempt to use something like this as a smokescreen to hide behind.

"We can torture terrorists and people we suspect are terrorists. The Geneva convention is hazy on how they should be treated. We need to change the Geneva Convention so that this loophole is closed."

All the time using the delay that would cause to get a bit more torture in.

F**king sickens me.

[redmenace]

Originally posted by karajorma
Obviously the Americans have problems with the "principles of humanity" bit then?

It's so typical of the US to attempt to use something like this as a smokescreen to hide behind.

"We can torture terrorists and people we suspect are terrorists. The Geneva convention is hazy on how they should be treated. We need to change the Geneva Convention so that this loophole is closed."

All the time using the delay that would cause to get a bit more torture in.

F**king sickens me.

Umm ok sure why not. Lets assume that they are being "tortured." I wouldn't right it off as villany of the american people. We, more or less, don't care much for those that themselves do not abide by international law or those that themselves don't care in regaurds to human rights. It is more or less an unwillingness to provide such things to someone who wishes, with every fiber in their being, to murder you. The reason we keep these murders, or if you prefer enemy combatants, is some, not all, posses knowledge of on going terrorist cells. Now before you go off and take some lofty and righteous tone, I don't condone the use of torture, but some feel, it is either an us or them. I hate to be pragmatic, but sometimes the ends justify the means. Yes, I know I am sick and perverted, but the world is sick and perverted and to fight war sometimes one has to become war. If I had a choice I don't think that even I would like to stand up and yes lets treat the very same people that are foaming at the mouth to kill me a lawyer, catv, a library, a chance to finish their highschool education, etc. I am dreadfully sorry that any of the past 5 years has happened.

[Black Wolf]

Originally posted by Rictor
act all outraged when it comes to light that inmates aren't recieving their proper dose of Vitamin B every day.

You know, that wouldn't be a problem if they offered them vegemite - probably get some happier inmates too.