[Pnakotus]

My god.  In a discussion about explosions, someone mentions frequency.  It just never stops.

The shields can't 'block' the KE of an impact - it has to go somewhere.  In any case, a nuclear-yield explosion without contact is probably going to do it's work with heating, rather than KE.

I love how Firecrack falsely accuses me of dishonesty and just ignores it.  That's integrity!  I love the totally implausible 'plasma contained by a laser' theory!

If it matters, I was under the impression the 'plasma core' thing was referring to powerplant or safeties on the weapons, not that the beam guns somehow fire 'plasma cores' at things.  However, the beams COULD be a form of particle beam, which would in fact use plasma.  Does anyone who the knowledge know if the beams are in fact instantaneous effects, or if they simply propagate extremely fast?

It doesn't seem that anyone is interested in any serious attempt to develop a proper theory on shield/beam interactions (like, with predictive power and supported by experimental data).  I'll give everyone a little experiment: load FS2.  Look at the nearest ship.  Fire.  You have just obtained proof that the guns are not lasers.

[Prophet]

Oh will you stop that laser thing! Never take it seriously when they call guns lasers.

Star Wars had lasers. Yeah, right
Almost any space shooter has had lasers.
Some games have weapons that would go as lasers (looks like a beam thingy) but they are not called lasers.

Laser is just light. It travels at the speed of light. I know because I have a laser pen, I use it to make people blind. :devil:
So any projectile that does not travel at the speed of light is not a laser. This result I have reached by using common sense.

[Pnakotus]

Your point?  Obviously FS 'lasers' aren't lasers, regardless of what they're called.  I'm not arguing with your examples, merely asking where you're going.  What something is called is certainly less important than observed behaviour.  Since most people here seem to assume they are, in fact, lasers, I labour the point.

I'm actually surprised: since it's just a game, I've always largely ignored the descriptions of weapons et al.  However, if you're going to try and come up with justifications for game mechanics, you've got to look at it more closely than 'tech room says x-ray lasers'.

[Prophet]

I see. I was to subtle.

My point is:

Why people keep arguing are they lasers or not!

Now, isn't it clear that FS was never meant, and never will be realistic when it comes to weapons. We should not talk about (at least not in this thread) what the weapons "really" are. But how will the issue in the poll effect game play. And what will it look like in the game, visually.

I think that beams should not pierce shields, because I think it looks cool. But they should cause huge damage to the shield it hits (the shield is trying to stop the incredible amount of energy the beams delivers). If a beam is powerful enought to just go trought shields like paper, what stops it going trought the hull too?

[Boomer]

I think that beams should not pierce shields, because I think it looks cool. But they should cause huge damage to the shield it hits (the shield is trying to stop the incredible amount of energy the beams delivers). If a beam is powerful enought to just go trought shields like paper, what stops it going trought the hull too?

Good point.

Laser is just light. It travels at the speed of light. I know because I have a laser pen, I use it to make people blind.

BTW, just to reinforce this, lasers technically shouldn't even be visible except from the impact area.

And yes, feel free to debate the nature of Freespace weaponry.  I'm getting of input.

[redsniper]

I just had an idea. Why don't we just give all beams really high shield damage multipliers? Sure you'll lose a whole shield quadrant when an AAA beam hits you, but that will add to the challenge.

[Pnakotus]

I think that increasing beam damage(either by increasing raw damage or just the multiplier) vs shields is the easiest solution.  You get the immediate hull damage, but instead of ignoring shields they just cut through them.  Indeed, with smartshields or quick arrow keys, you can reroute power to cover the arc again.

Maybe I'm imagining things, but don't you get some hull damage while shields are still up already?  If so, you could tweak that system so beams let more damage through.   I'm sure I've been crashing into things and taken small amounts of hull damage through full shields.  Still, I'd like the ability to hit shields with so much energy that the system is destroyed and the vessel loses shielding permanently.  *That'd* make AAAfs pretty scary!

And Prophet, sorry for misunderstanding you.  I thought you were suggesting the discussion was pointless given FS's 'imaginative' nature.  The whole scifi brainbug of 'plasma' weapons has just always irritated me.

[aldo_14]

Incidentally.... the GTVA probably had samples of the Lucifer shield system to work on with regards to beams vs that.  Silent Threat mentions the Hades having a 'Shivan defensive system' or similar for the last debrief.

[TopAce]

Shivan defensive system = Shivan weapons

[Pnakotus]

Was it ever established exactly what Shivan technology the Hades incorporated, or what technology in FS2 was Shivan-derived?  As far as I know, there isn't even any real evidence suggesting that the beam cannon are based off the Lucifer guns, since they were all destroyed and the other ships didn't have any.  Obviously the fighter-shields are based directly off captured Shivan examples, but what else is there?

I don't remember (I could never finish the last ST mission ) if the Hades fired Shivan guns or what.

[pyro-manic]

It had Shivan blob turrets, but no beams/flux cannons. But it was incomplete at the time of it's destruction, so presumably not all of it's weapons had been installed (or perhaps even developed). I think it was supposed to have some elements of Shivan tech in it's hull plating as well, but I can't remember....

As for other tech, the Kayser is "the result of research into Shivan weapons technology". Can't remember anything else offhand, though...

[Goober5000]

It had Shivan Super Lasers (Lucifer beams) on it though.

[DarthWang]

I think beams were supposed to obviate shields, and GTVA even determined that they would defeat Lucifer - style shields, so that's why they were sure the Colossus would defeat another Lucifer.

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by Pnakotus
As far as I know, there isn't even any real evidence suggesting that the beam cannon are based off the Lucifer guns, since they were all destroyed and the other ships didn't have any.

The only thing the GTVA had were scans Aplha 1 took of the Lucifer.

But the lucifer cannosn weren't destroyed - they're just drifting near Earth. So I reckon if contact with Ear ever does get established, they will have really cool things (after all, they had pieces of Lucifer to study)

[JoeLo]

First of all, it's interesting to note that not all of the weapons in this category are actual lasers, or have anything to do with such systems. The term is derived from late 20th - early 21st century Science-Fiction films, where the term 'laser cannon' meant any particle/energy based pulse weapon. In reality these weapons use a multitude of ways to create destructive power - from higly focused X-ray emissions to microparticles whose wave functions emanate intense zero-point energy.[Quote\]
   Direct excratction from FS2 tech entry, case closed.

[JoeLo]

Originally Freespace 2 Tech entry
First of all, it's interesting to note that not all of the weapons in this category are actual lasers, or have anything to do with such systems. The term is derived from late 20th - early 21st century Science-Fiction films, where the term 'laser cannon' meant any particle/energy based pulse weapon. In reality these weapons use a multitude of ways to create destructive power - from higly focused X-ray emissions to microparticles whose wave functions emanate intense zero-point energy.

[Pnakotus]

Trashman, I used to think the Lucifer's 'head' survived as well, but last time I saw the FSend cutscene, I'm almost certain after the head breaks off it is completely obliterated.  I SERIOUSLY doubt anything could be recovered of such a complex technology.

@Goob, are you sure?  I don't have an ST pilot at the end, so I can't check.  Did it have the 'trail' style Luciferbeams?  If they don't fire at fighters, they could have been there during the battle and noone would notice.

[DarthWang]

I just checked it out in FRED, it has 2 Shivan Super Lasers, the same kind on the Lucifer.

[TrashMan]

sections that survived are at least cruiser-sized... that's about 300 cubic meters... a lot of volume in which stuff can be found.

And I watched the anis..two arms chunks and a large part of the head survived (at least)

note that with the destruction of Teranis, the GTVA had no insight on shivan warship tech, so even something small would be usefull.

[karajorma]

It's also worth noting that the GTVA learned nothing from the Lucifer either as the debris was on the Sol side of the closed node

Unless of course there was communication via radio telescope between the GTVA and Sol.