[aldo_14]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4096256.stm

[q]An autopsy report on a brain-damaged woman at the centre of a long legal battle in the US has shown that she suffered no trauma before her collapse.

Terri Schiavo's parents had accused her husband of abusing her before the collapse in 1990, but Michael Schiavo denied the claim.

The report also confirmed Mr Schiavo's assertion that she was in a persistent vegetative state.

Schiavo died in March, nearly two weeks after her feeding tube was removed.

The report was made public by Florida's medical examiner's office.

Examiner John Throgmartin said there was no evidence of trauma or strangulation prior to Schiavo's collapse.

The autopsy also could not prove that she was suffering from an eating disorder at the time - her diminished potassium levels at the time could have been affected by emergency treatment.

The 41-year-old was found not to have suffered a heart attack or been administered harmful drugs or other substances before her death. She died of dehydration.

The report also said her brain was only half its normal size at her death.

She was incapable of surviving without her feeding tube, Mr Throgmartin said, adding that she was blind and incapable of thinking, feeling or interacting with her environment.

"This damage was irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons," he said.

Terri Schiavo collapsed after her heart stopped beating temporarily in 1990.

Her husband fought for several years to have her feeding tube removed, saying it was what she would have wanted. Her parents led the campaign to keep their daughter alive.

Mr Schiavo had requested the procedure to show the extent of brain injuries sustained 15 years ago.[/q]

(feel free to draw your own insinuations; I'm not interested in starting an arguement, just providing the information because it should be of interest RE: earlier contention)

[Sandwich]

You know, the part I had the hardest time understanding about the whole mess was this:

[q]She died of dehydration.[/q]

I can understand her being in a vegetative state, I can understand them wanting to end her suffering, but... dehydration?? I mean, what the hell? Ramifications of actively ending her life (i.e. via lethal injection) vs. allowing her to die through inaction (removing feeding tube) aside, how in the world could anyone decide that allowing her to die by dehydration is easier on one's concience than actively killing her through a humane method, such as lethal injection?

[achtung]

I agree completely but her parents got in the way and while they battled over her life I think they really didn't think so much of her.  I beleive her parents cared for her but they wanted attention form the media.

This is the only post I plan to make in this thread because to me there is no argument left in this.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Sandwich
You know, the part I had the hardest time understanding about the whole mess was this:

[q]She died of dehydration.[/q]

I can understand her being in a vegetative state, I can understand them wanting to end her suffering, but... dehydration?? I mean, what the hell? Ramifications of actively ending her life (i.e. via lethal injection) vs. allowing her to die through inaction (removing feeding tube) aside, how in the world could anyone decide that allowing her to die by dehydration is easier on one's concience than actively killing her through a humane method, such as lethal injection?

Well, legally that would be considered euthanasia; so it's simply not legally possible to consider it AFAIK under US law.  They're only allowed to withdraw invasive treatment/life support.  The validity of the law is of course an issue in that; I doubt euthanasia would be allowed, even if permitted for consenting (i.e. mentall fit to communicate a wish to die) and terminally ill adults, due to the political issues surrounding this case.

Albeit, in my understanding her brain would have been damaged to the extent that she could no longer feel thirst or know she was dying, so the issue of suffering is possibly more correctly applied to those who had to watch her die.

[Turnsky]

Originally posted by Sandwich
You know, the part I had the hardest time understanding about the whole mess was this:

[q]She died of dehydration.[/q]

I can understand her being in a vegetative state, I can understand them wanting to end her suffering, but... dehydration?? I mean, what the hell? Ramifications of actively ending her life (i.e. via lethal injection) vs. allowing her to die through inaction (removing feeding tube) aside, how in the world could anyone decide that allowing her to die by dehydration is easier on one's concience than actively killing her through a humane method, such as lethal injection?

because most americans are staunch christian nutters, and two-faced ones at that..

1) How can you be a staunch Christian and two-faced at the same time?
2) Let's keep this polite now; no personal attacks.

[IceFire]

I just remember hearing the news and feeling thankful that that she was finally resting in a far better place.  Poor woman.  At least this proves that no ill harm was ever done.

[adwight]

I wonder sometimes how miserable and awful it would be to be like that for ten years.  I hope it never, ever happens to me.  Sandwich, the reason they didn't use a "humane" way to kill her is because she had no feeling, no thought.  She had no idea she was dying, and it was the easiest way to administer what needed to be done.

[Taristin]

You contradict yourself...

It's not miserable, and aweful, if she's just a shell. She was already dead. (According to this, atleast)

[Deepblue]

It doesn't prove that no ill harm was done when she originally went into a vegetative state, it just proves no harm was done (apart from the dehydration bit) RECENTLY. At least, that's the impression I get from the autopsy report. Really sad story in all ways.

[Stealth]

aldo: you're 100% right on that.

[Kosh]

Albeit, in my understanding her brain would have been damaged to the extent that she could no longer feel thirst or know she was dying, so the issue of suffering is possibly more correctly applied to those who had to watch her die.

She only had half a brain left. Literally. She had no conscousness, and there was no hope of recovery. Especially considering that her brain was like that for 15 years.

1) How can you be a staunch Christian and two-faced at the same time?

I think the word he meant to use was "hypocrite", but that is just an educated guess.

[aldo_14]

[q]1) How can you be a staunch Christian and two-faced at the same time?[/q]

(who added that?  And why?)

As easily as any other human being can be 2 faced or hypocritical over a set of opinions they hold which may run contrary to other opinions they also hold.

Originally posted by Deepblue
It doesn't prove that no ill harm was done when she originally went into a vegetative state, it just proves no harm was done (apart from the dehydration bit) RECENTLY. At least, that's the impression I get from the autopsy report. Really sad story in all ways.

This is what troubles me; one of the focuses on this appears to have been to shift from moral or ethical issues which deserve debating, to launching pretty much baseless* attacks on a specific individual on 'the other side'.  As such I've seen accusations of spousal abuse (which has been disproved by the autopsy as occuring prior to the collapse), greed, etc made; which surely stifles rather than encourages a debate about this issue.

*otherwise a criminal case could have been launched; I don't think any has been given credible evidence.

Incidentally, CNN has a longer report; http://premium.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/06/15/schiavo.autopsy/index.html

[q]

LARGO, Florida (CNN) -- The autopsy of Terri Schiavo found no evidence that the severely brain-damaged woman was strangled or abused and that no amount of therapy would have reversed her condition, a medical examiner said Wednesday.

Schiavo's brain was damaged in 1990 after she collapsed and suffered heart failure.

Schiavo, 41, died March 31 at a Pinellas Park, Florida, hospice 13 days after her feeding tube was removed by a judge's order. (Full story)

A seven-year legal battle between Schiavo's husband and parents culminated in a national controversy and prompted action by Congress and the White House.

Jon Thogmartin, medical examiner for Florida's District Six, which includes Pasco and Pinellas counties, said the cause of death was "marked dehydration." Thogmartin said that the autopsy did not determine the cause of her collapse.

He said his examination turned up no sign of abuse or trauma -- allegations leveled by Terri Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, against her husband and legal guardian, Michael Schiavo.

A report from a neuropathologist who served as a consultant to the autopsy said Schiavo's brain was "grossly abnormal and weighed only 615 grams [1.35 pounds]."

That weight is less than half that expected for a woman of her age, said the report written by Dr. Stephen J. Nelson.

'Irreversible' brain damage

Schiavo's brain damage "was irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons," Thogmartin said.

"Her brain was profoundly atrophied," he said.

The vision centers of her brain were dead, he said.

But without removal of the feeding tube, and if conditions such as pneumonia and urinary tract infections -- common in bed-ridden patients -- were treated, Terri Schiavo could have lived another decade, Thogmartin estimated.

"Their report shows what we have said -- that Terri was not terminal," said the Schindlers' attorney, David Gibbs. "Terri Schiavo was not in an end-of-life situation. The decision was made to end her life, and we believe it was done in a barbaric manner."

He also said the autopsy still leaves unanswered questions, most notably what he called an unexplained gap in 1990 between the time Michael Schiavo has said his wife collapsed, at 4:30 a.m., and the time a 9-1-1 call was made, at 5:40 a.m., according to the medical examiner's report.

"I think those 70 minutes are very, very troubling," Gibbs said. "Michael Schiavo is the only person who was there."

He said he did not know if the gap was investigated at the time.

George Felos, Michael Schiavo's attorney, said later Wednesday there was no time gap. He pointed to Michael Schiavo's testimony in a malpractice trial in which he described hearing a thud, finding his wife on the floor and calling 9-1-1 immediately.

"There's no credible issue as to what happened that morning, in terms of the timing," Felos said, calling Gibbs' comment "a baseless claim to perpetuate a controversy."

Felos said Michael Schiavo was "pleased" to hear the autopsy results, saying they confirmed many of his long-held beliefs and claims.

"You have to understand, for years he feels like he's been talking in the wind," Felos said.

In the legal battle between Michael Schiavo and the Schindlers, courts for years consistently ruled in Michael Schiavo's favor and said Terri Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state, a point hotly contested by her parents, who claimed she could improve with therapy.

Though the diagnosis for a persistent vegetative state normally is made in living persons, Nelson said he found nothing inconsistent with such a state when examining Terri Schiavo's brain.

The Schiavo controversy was fueled by the abuse allegations.

In a lawsuit, the Schindlers alleged to Florida's Department of Family and Children Services that Michael Schiavo tried to starve her, beat her, inappropriately medicated her and wanted her dead to gain financially.

According to documents released after her death, the department concluded after what it called extensive investigations that "no information or evidence was found to support the allegations," and noted that conclusion was supported by years of legal and medical documentation. (Full story)

Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, who tried to intervene on the Schindlers' behalf, said in a written statement Wednesday that "Terri's life and her death remind us all that life is so fragile and must be valued."

"We will continue to strive to protect our most vulnerable citizens. All innocent human life is precious and government has a duty to protect the weak, disabled and vulnerable," he wrote. "Our thoughts and prayers remain with the Schindler family during this most difficult time."

Cause of collapse unexplained

As for the cause of Terri Schiavo's initial collapse, her husband has theorized that perhaps she had bulimia that caused her potassium levels to plummet. Low potassium levels were found upon her arrival at a hospital.

Thogmartin, however, said those measurements were taken only after Terri Schiavo had received more than a quart and a half of intravenous fluid and epinephrine, both of which can cause low potassium levels. In addition, no one who knew Terri Schiavo had ever seen any symptoms of an eating disorder, including her husband, he said.

Thogmartin said he looked at other causes for the collapse. Drugs and strangulation were ruled out, as was a possible heart attack. He even considered caffeine toxicity from the tea she liked to drink, he said, but believes that was unlikely unless she was taking a supplement containing additional caffeine.

Terri Schiavo was cremated after the autopsy was completed, but her ashes have not been interred. Although a judge has required Michael Schiavo to tell the Schindlers of his burial plans for her, there has been no communication between the two sides since Terri Schiavo's death.

Michael Schiavo has said he plans to bury his wife's ashes in Bucks County, Pennsylvania, where she was born. Her family held a memorial service for her in Florida.
[/q]

[karajorma]

Originally NOT posted by Turnsky
1) How can you be a staunch Christian and two-faced at the same time?

By claiming that euthanasia is wrong cause only God should decide when a life should end but still supporting the death sentence?

[Mongoose]

Something that isn't mentioned in either of those stories, but that I've heard mentioned elsewhere, is that much of the frontal lobe of her brain, which control aspects of judgment, memory, language, and problem solving, showed little damaged.  The most damaged regions were in the rear of her brain, which controls motor skills.  From what I've heard, it is possible that Schiavo was aware of what was happening to her, but was unable to communicate it in any way.  I've also heard that a neuropathologist who contributed to the report has gone so far as to say that an autopsy doesn't really give any definite information either way about the existence of a true persistent vegetative state.  Other doctors have said that they've seen cases where walking, talking, coherent people have had the same amount of brain atrophy.  There was just a case on the local news of a girl who had had an entire hemisphere of her brain removed; she graduated from high school with honors.  I'm not trying to spark debate, but it's just some food for thought.

Regardless of whether or not Schiavo was brain-dead, I don't trust her "husband" as far as I could throw him.  There's a lot behind this case that's never come to light; the fact that we still don't even know what caused her condition in the first place, and the speculations over that alleged 70-minute gap of time, are somewhat suspicious.  His actions have never seemed to be those of a caring husband, either.

[aldo_14]

Actually, the autopsy report states 'her remaining brain regions also show severe hypoxic injury and neural atrophy/loss'.  Note the 'severe'.  (pg 35)

It describes here as having 'anoxic ischemic encephalopathy'; encephalopathy causes (depending on severity) a progressive degredation of cognitive and memory skill - tallied with the description of the above, that would suggest to me a severe lack of cognitive ability.

I'd note that the autopsy does state details on PVS diagnosis RE: living patients and correlation with autopsy results in the section above (5) on said page, and also on page 17-18.

I'm not a neurologist, natch, so if anyone here is, they can peek at that set of pages and translate it.  But to me, the implication of Teri Schiavo having uncommunicatable cognition (to coin a term; if attempting rehab, IIRc they would not only test visual stimulus but also that of sound and touch - i.e. anything you could sense) is arguable a red herring - is there any way that could be diagnosed anyways?  And would anyone want to live in that condition? (is it any different from vegetation - or is it worse)

I'd note, though, that having an entire hemisphere removed is different - although there are still side effects due to specialisations in each hemisphere, IIRC the brain is able to recompensate partially because it is healthy (as opposed to Schiavos brain, which was all-round damaged).  Brain surgery is a surgical solution for extreme cases of epilepsy; I'd guess this type - http://psychologytoday.webmd.com/content/article/88/99676.htm - of surgery is what you're referring to.  Anyways, it's not a fair comparison, because it's suregery upon a 'healthy' brain (within relative context).

I don't know about the specifics of cerebral atrophy (and not without knowing the details of the cited examples - assuming I could understand them! ), but AFAIK the survivability can depend upon the localisation of the atrophy (i.e. within a specific region rather than whole-brain).  I do know that the autopsy sites another case of a vegatative patient with a greater brain mass, so it cuts both ways.

With regards to her husband; the allegations thrown to discredit his case has been as of yet baseless or, when tested in court, thrown out as false.  Ultimately you can't hold him as 'guilty' of something unless you have evidence; particularly as this case went through every court in the land, every legal procedure possible, and under intense scrutiny.  Had these suspicions been enough to cause a change in the case - principally the claim Teri Schiavo would wish to die if in this state - then they would surely have done so.

[Mongoose]

I knew the hemisphere case was a completely different issue; I mainly threw it in there simply because I was amazed at the human body's capacity to undergo something that drastic and still function relatively normally. As for the other factors, I've seen them floating around from numerous sources, some more reputable than others.  It seems as though you have a much greater understanding of cognitive function than me, though; most of those clinical terms flew right over my head.

Regarding the case in general, even with the evidence presented, I'd still stand my position of being against the feeding tube removal, if for nothing else than my opposition to euthanasia.  While the autopsy can give all of the technical details in the world, there will always be that degree of uncertainty of exactly what was going on inside Terri's head.  To me at least, seeing as how her continued living wasn't harming anyone at all, taking into account her relatives' repeated assurances that they would take over all medical responsibilites, and considering the fact that her "husband" had had a live-in girlfriend for years, I still can't understand why they just couldn't let her go on as she was.  If she was still functioning mentally to some extent, then her murder would be prevented; if she was brain-dead, then there would not be any harm to anyone.  Also regarding her husband, I'm also awaiting the impact of the decision today to re-investigate the circumstances surrounding her attack.  Maybe more can be learned eventually that might help sort out what really went on.

[Scuddie]

If I see another post about Terri Schiavo, I'm going to ban somebody.

[Bobboau]

her brain wasa lifeless pulp.

"oh no no no! she had to be alive, we have to be right all the time and the librals are always evil evil evil. I must have faith that she was totaly ok and gona get better but it was just her evil husband who tried to kill her and insidiously hid all evedence so he... could get.. monies.. for ... evil libral!!!IMrightImRIGHT iMRIGHTALLTHETIME must have, must have faith in the republican pazrty who put everything on the line to manipulate the population on a poloriseing isssue, defineing the lines to split people into an I'm always right position so they can push there agenda without anyone noticeing because there too busy fighting over stupid irrelevent crap"

[Goober5000]

Here's another opinion.  This guy says that, while her brain may indeed have been an irreversibly damaged pulp, the areas governing awareness and consciousness were still intact.

[Ghost]

Bull****. Half a brain= brain shrinkage, methinks. Therefor, all parts of the brain were equally damaged, so she couldn't do ****ing anything.

To make it easier on all you bleeding heart numbskulls who wanted to keep her alive: this means she felt no pain.