[Solatar]

I always thought they never could figure out who exactly built the Sphinx, but they knew the pyramids were built by egyptians. I haven't studied the issue in years, so my info is probably outdated. It's still a cool concept though.

[Lone Knight]

I always hoped that if FS- was made, we'd be getting our butts kicked, and we'd make contact with the Ancients, and together, finally destroy the Shivans in a titanic war.

[Singh]

One thing to note....the Ancients didn't stumble on the Shivans....the Shivans came for them, suggesting they had done some incredible 'sin' or act that attracted their attention. If we go according to FS2/FS1 standards, the fact that they were an intergalactic or near-intergalactic species alone means that the Shivan armada had to be massive, otherwise it would have fell to sheer numbers alone. However, I seriously doubt that it was the Shivan's most powerfull fleet either

I also suspect that Altair was one of the last remnants of the Ancients, and that the depleted Shivan fleet that had hunted them down pretty much chased them there, where the last few ships and survivors somehow managed to find their weaknesses (ever wonder HOW they did it? I bet it was while the lucifer was chasing them into subspace towards altair) before ditching and hiding from them.  

I bet the Lucifer fleet in FS1 was doing 'mopping' up, so to speak, sweeping accross that section for any survivors when it came accross the Terrans....and then we all know what happened next.

Perhaps the fleet that encountered the ancients were doing the exact same thing with a previous, far larger civilization?

DAMNIT!

[Ghost]

Singh: Bosch did say that whole "9 cities of Troy" thing... the Shivans destroyed civilizations that were built on the ruins of those before it. So you're probably not far off the mark.

[DarthWang]

I seem to remember something about the Ancients contacting the Vasudans when they were still primitive and telling them about the Shivans, that's where the HOL got their whole 'prophecy' deal from.

Also, I don't think their empire was that big, since they obviously first encountered the Shivans somewhere past Gamma Draconis, they kept building Knossos portals to stabilize jump nodes and go farther, and eventually they ran into the Shivans, who did the whole supernova deal and created that nebula, then proceeded to wipe out the Ancients.

[AlphaOne]

well if what we know so far is at least 90% true then we would have the Ancients ruling at least one galaxy.

As for the whole Shivan armada they would of had to come from somewhere else posibly another galaxy where they were probably attacked by the Ancients.

I suspect that what we saw of the Lucifer fleet was the remnants of the huge armada that anihalated the ancients.

The diference beeing made by the Lucifer itself beeing indestructible. or at least so it seemed.

They must of had thousands of ships going after the Ancients.

and if what I suspect is true then the shivans lost most of theyr fleet against a titanic war aginst the Ancients. Then just as they were confidendt of theyr victory something else happened, posibly a new species stubeled into the shivans. A species powerfull enugh to be considered a serious threat by the shivans not just for themselfs but for every other sentient race out there.

considering they were wekened by the last war they would find it dificult to battle both the GTVa to extinction and the ongooing threat.
So they did the only thing posible and logical, they sealed the door (capella) and also used the supernova to divert theyr forces from engaging the GTVA to engaging the new nemesis.

Remember they had no idea how many ships the GTVA had for all they knew the GTVA could of had 80+ Colossus class ships waiting for them around the corner.

The fact that the GTVA has a strict polici on saving capships this would of lead the shivans  to believe:
a)either they are that weak that they can not fight us and win or
b)this is nothing but a strategi to lure them into a carefully planned killing ground where they would decimate them.

What do you think???

[Lone Knight]

Well, if the Shivans are the "Great Preservers" maybe they didn't completely wipe out the Ancients, they merely wiped out a large number of them, kinda saying "You can't get that powerful"

They just killed a butt load of Ancients, which convinced the Ancients that their galaxy/species conquest was over.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Charismatic


If there was one male and one female and they reprodused, and their family had 8,000 years to keep reproduseing, and createing more, id expect a farily large amount of them in the hidden systems..

Ever heard of 'genetic diversity'?

Originally posted by AlphaOne

Remember they had no idea how many ships the GTVA had for all they knew the GTVA could of had 80+ Colossus class ships waiting for them around the corner.

Actually, I'd wager they probably would know there was only one Colossus; they had Admiral Bosch and his upper crew in custody - a readily available source of information on the GTVA's strategy and strength if there ever was one.

[Fragrag]

Originally posted by aldo_14

Actually, I'd wager they probably would know there was only one Colossus; they had Admiral Bosch and his upper crew in custody - a readily available source of information on the GTVA's strategy and strength if there ever was one.

Not sure about that, I mean, would you go running at a alien race yelling "We'er weak, your overestimating us! You can destroy us in 4 seconds!"

[Kie99]

Aldo firmly believes that they could extract the information from Bosch's brain.

[karajorma]

I believe they could do that too. Generally by using sharp impliments on the rest of him.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Fragrag


Not sure about that, I mean, would you go running at a alien race yelling "We'er weak, your overestimating us! You can destroy us in 4 seconds!"

Bosch may have believed that the Shivans wouldn't attack if they didn't consider humanity a threat.  OR the Shivans could have just picked his computers.

IIRC the Shivan Sathanas advance only started after they picked him up, didn't it?

[AlphaOne]

I dont think so. I mean can they even understand what bosch is sayng, can they even understand what boch has in his computers..???

Also I dont think that those jugg's started moving after bosch was captured...! They must of started moving a lot sooner then that. You can not pull 80 jug's out of your magic hat and place them on the ront door of the GTVA  no matter how powerfull you are!

[Nuclear1]

Originally posted by AlphaOne
You can not pull 80 jug's out of your magic hat and place them on the ront door of the GTVA  no matter how powerfull you are!

It could have been simply that the juggernauts were moving, and Bosch, having realized that the Shivans had something nasty in store for the GTVA, simply diverted the Shivans to deep-fry Capella, and not continue through to GTVA space.

[karajorma]

We have no idea how far away Shivan space is or what they are doing there. For all we know the third knossos leads straight to one of their most highly developed system and 80 saths is the equivalent of a Shivan standing army.

[Nuclear1]

Actually, if I may divert to Bosch's monologues, he does make a remark regarding the Shivans being born "out of the flux of subspace". Now, if this were true and the Shivans were actually created out of subspace, what is there to say that the eighty juggernauts weren't simply created in a certain subspace portal? The Shivans, for all we know about them, could have an unlimited supply of ships, if they do follow the idea of an intergalactic police or the universe's method of balancing power in species.

Could it be possible that the Shivans simply [absurd]disappear[/absurd] after they have either been defeated or have destroyed a civilization that has gotten out of hand? If this is true, then the Lucifer from FS1 could very well not be the same ship that killed the Ancients, but just a new Shivan ship that popped out of subspace when they noticed the Vasudans becoming too powerful, blasted them, and then were simply going to disappear after dealing with the GTA.

However, I'm willing to support that the Shivans were simply finishing off the Ancients as well; the Ancients had influenced the Vasudans during their development, so destroying Vasuda Prime was obviously getting rid of the Ancients' legacy in Vasudan space. Then, by that logic, they could have been travelling to Earth to eradicate some other Ancient influence. Eden? Atlantis? Pyramids? Sphynx? Sounds strangely like the Ur-Quan from Star Control II, destroying anything older than 500 years on Earth.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by AlphaOne
I dont think so. I mean can they even understand what bosch is sayng, can they even understand what boch has in his computers..???

Also I dont think that those jugg's started moving after bosch was captured...! They must of started moving a lot sooner then that. You can not pull 80 jug's out of your magic hat and place them on the ront door of the GTVA  no matter how powerfull you are!

Why not?  Bosch has developed a translator in the form of ETAK, he wouldn't have arranged to go with the Shivans in the first place if there wasn't a form of communication, rudimentary as it may have been.  And I'd reckon the Shivans would be possibly more adept at working with computers than verbal communication; particularly bearing in mind that the GTVI did manage to manipulate Shivan technology that was far in advance of its own.

I mean, you're assuming the Sathanas fleet was far away.  But they could be a mere 2 jumps away from Gamma Draconis - excluding the one already in the nebula, of course.  And I'm not talking starting moving, either; I'm talking advancing, as in upon GTVA space from a prepared assembly point; if the Shivans thought the GTVa had firepower in the form of 80 juggernauts (unlikely if there was any 'back-communication' from Shivan forces during the Great War - they'd know the GTVA technological state and be able to estimate forces from it), they'd assemble defence points anyways - it'd be the decision to actually attack that would be modified by intelligence.

And, of course, that's assuming they weren't preparing an attack to search for something, before sending the Sathani fleet in - it just happened that Bosch gave them a location they wanted.

Either way I don't think it can be ruled out fully.

Originally posted by nuclear1
Actually, if I may divert to Bosch's monologues, he does make a remark regarding the Shivans being born "out of the flux of subspace". Now, if this were true and the Shivans were actually created out of subspace, what is there to say that the eighty juggernauts weren't simply created in a certain subspace portal? The Shivans, for all we know about them, could have an unlimited supply of ships, if they do follow the idea of an intergalactic police or the universe's method of balancing power in species.

Could it be possible that the Shivans simply [absurd]disappear[/absurd] after they have either been defeated or have destroyed a civilization that has gotten out of hand? If this is true, then the Lucifer from FS1 could very well not be the same ship that killed the Ancients, but just a new Shivan ship that popped out of subspace when they noticed the Vasudans becoming too powerful, blasted them, and then were simply going to disappear after dealing with the GTA.

However, I'm willing to support that the Shivans were simply finishing off the Ancients as well; the Ancients had influenced the Vasudans during their development, so destroying Vasuda Prime was obviously getting rid of the Ancients' legacy in Vasudan space. Then, by that logic, they could have been travelling to Earth to eradicate some other Ancient influence. Eden? Atlantis? Pyramids? Sphynx?

Stargate!

Um...i don't like the idea of Shivans being literally born of subspace. IMO it's a cheap magic-style solution to their origins.

[Charismatic]

I think the Vasudans and Terrans are not big enough to be a threat, as the Ancients were. But we've "adapted" and "survived". If they were created out of subspace, then we can kill them by subspace, and if the live there, they have a Limited supply. Their own beings in another 'dimention' so to speak, and they transfer to our world.

Think of this: You know those 3-4 knossos's. Combine those with the "9 citys of troy" theory. And lastly, what did we do to stop the shivans? Ta-da!

The civilazations before them knew how to blow up a  node to keep the shivans out. The Ancients, being gifted in Subspace technology, knew how to reopen those closed off nodes. But failed, they did, to realize the darkness beyond he portals. But i think, if we cant Build our own knossos, we could simply "Move" one to the Sol node and say hi.

Shivans suck, and thats that. We too powerfull? Hell no. 80 Sathys, if you didnt notice.

--And if a Hades can kill a sathy with not much prob, were dumbasses for kiling it. Dam command!

I think Bosch kinda bluffed the Shivans. Shivans fighting a nother force or problem, and us, and he said we got some big ass ships aroudn the corner so dont take more losses and leave to fight the other big bad guy.

[emotional speach]Bosch i beleive in FS- will play a big roll in the fate of humnantiy. Tho he was insane, his hidden agendas, even still he had more hidden oens then we know from his monologs and ideals, those. Those hiddne ones, will save us all.[/emotional speach]

[Boomer]

I have to admit, while Bosch's methods were suspect, his motives were true.  What was it that Mark Antony said about Brutus in Julius Caesar?  "He alone did what he did out of his love for Rome."

(I can't believe I just quoted Shakespeare, someone kill me now!)

I really do think that the whole Bosch thing will come back to bite us in the ass one way or another.

As far as the Ancients go, I think they deserved everything they got.

"Let's destroy this planet with stupid bipeds who can't even realize that they are not the center of the universe.  These small races make me sick. I wish I could-"

*80 Sathani jump in*

"Oh ****, wtf, all guns open-"

*Shivans proceed to wipe the floor with Ancients*

Ahhh, what a satisfying image....

[FireCrack]

Bosch never speculates that the shivans were born of subspace, he simply notes that that was what the ancients belived.