[Grug]

Would this be possible?

I was thinking in the form of an animated sky box. Perhaps a second layered skybox for animated pieces?
eff format would be required minumum.

Possibly even little animated movie areas applied similarly to planets / nebs. Controlled by SEXPs as well.

On the note of the eff format, would it be possible to implement a system where we can zip an .eff format along with all image files and call the file blah.fsa or something along those lines?
Just seems more logical to have each animation as a single file. (vp's don't count, its still a pain searching through them, or adding / removing an eff.

[Bobboau]

people should just try and see if effects they want are enabled before asking for them.

just give the name of an ani/eff for the texture, unless there is a normal texture by that name the animation will be used.

[Grug]

This was unknown to me, with the wiki on the rocks and few other places to check features besides rough readme files, many features get past me. o_O

Can they be controlled by SEXPs though?

[Bobboau]

eh, that no. I don't think they can anyway.

[taylor]

Originally posted by Grug
On the note of the eff format, would it be possible to implement a system where we can zip an .eff format along with all image files and call the file blah.fsa or something along those lines?

Everyone keeps asking for that but I'm still a hard-ass on the subject.  I might very well update EFF so that it allows everything to be in one file but that's very low priority.  The reasons are two fold:

1) I wanted it to be easier to make EFFs in the first place.  Having the frames in one file means that we need a utility to create them.  I didn't want to make a cross-platform utility for that since it annoying to get it working in a full featured way under Linux/OSX.

2) EFFs allow for considerably higher memory usage given the formats they can use.  The separate frames are in part a deterant from making an EFF that uses a lot of frames.  Fewer frames means less memory used.  The ANI format is seriously abused by glowmaps with a lot of frames and it's putting the memory usage through the roof and creating the bmpman corruption issues.  Helping you stay organized with your files is a good thing but if that also makes it easier for you to make it so that I need 4Gig of RAM to play the damn game then that's insane.

[Grug]

1) If you used a pre-existing archiving utility then that wouldn't be an issue. Arn't zips or rars cross platform?

2) True to an extent, though people are having 100+ frame eff's anyway. Having a single, easily accessable file format would be much more easier for organization in the effects folder. Especially when you start getting 5-6 + eff animations in the one folder.

All I ask for is the exact same system, just the ability to chuck the files in a zip and for FS support it.

On the animated backgrounds, does that mean SEXP controlled skyboxes will never happen?
What if its to control what frames to play? Thus its already loaded on mission start, just a few SEXPs to freeze, play, and loop designated frames.

[taylor]

Originally posted by Grug
1) If you used a pre-existing archiving utility then that wouldn't be an issue. Arn't zips or rars cross platform?

Yes but they would have to be uncompressed to be used and that's annoying.  We'd also have to code in a utility to handle zip files or rely on another lib which means another dependency and those files would only work on builds that supported them.  I know it can be a pain to keep that many files organized but no one has been able to convince me that a container format is actually the best option.  Until that day comes I'll probably be fighting this.  Sorry.

2) True to an extent, though people are having 100+ frame eff's anyway.

Anyone making a 100+ frame EFF is evil.  Pure evil.  Everyone has got to understand that there can only be so many images loaded at the time.  We keep hitting the limit because that fact gets ignored.  A 100 frame EFF means 100 images that get loaded whether it's in one file or not and I don't want anyone to forget that.  A lot of artwork is be designed individually and not from the point of view that it's a very small part of a very large whole.  Extreme memory usage, super long load times, bmpman corruption problems and massive in-game slowdowns are all the cause of this thinking.

In a typical mission with the MediaVPs you will have an average of around 3,000 images loaded.  And that's after a lot of work to reduce the number that are loaded at any given time.  There is currently a max of 4,750 and increasing it also increases memory usage and generally makes things slow so it's unlikely to be raised again.

On the animated backgrounds, does that mean SEXP controlled skyboxes will never happen?

Since I never actually replied to this before, I didn't fully work out the details but I did have a similar thought once.  There were several problems, how to properly handle multiple animations at the time, memory usage, slowdown from the effects actually running, all anis used this way would have to be properly key framed.  So, "Can this happen?", probably.  Don't know if it would be worth it though since there would have to be numerous restrictions.  It would get pretty tricky.

Though I'm not sure if it works now it would be possible (and a lot easier) to have a skybox with an animated texture(s) but they would start playing when you entered the mission and only be able to endlessly loop.  Used in concert with the SEXP to swap skyboxes it might be sorta useful but I don't know.

[Grug]

Having the container format is more for the conveniance of the modders. Its only a minor priority, but hopefully one day we can come back to it and review the idea along with optimization issues.

I was thinking that having keyframes or multiple skyboxes would be too troublesome and clumsy for the engine. The easiest way that I can think of is to have one eff animation texture that can be controlled similarly to the eff file but within the SEXPs.
Only with exceedingly large animations in multi-stage long missions / skyboxes would a more efficient system be required to load the skybox in parts.

It's hardly a priority either, as some small short animated skyboxes should do for now. But the ability to control skybox animations would be nice. Eg, it could be used to make a nice new super nova effect.

BTW, what's the deal with the Interface at the moment?
Will eff be supported in the mainhall etc yet?

I was going to suggest at one point, of having an in-engine interface. So it loads a FRED mission which is basically just a pretty scene. The GUI being a 2d overlay.

Would allow a bit more innovation and such. Though we really need some more ways to edit the interface. In-game drawn 2d lines, buttons and such.

[taylor]

Originally posted by Grug
I was thinking that having keyframes or multiple skyboxes would be too troublesome and clumsy for the engine. The easiest way that I can think of is to have one eff animation texture that can be controlled similarly to the eff file but within the SEXPs.
Only with exceedingly large animations in multi-stage long missions / skyboxes would a more efficient system be required to load the skybox in parts.

It really depends on how much flexibility you want.  Whether it's EFF or ANI (even without keyframes) it's possible to have an animation controled by sexp.  The restriction there is that you could pretty much only be able to reliably control one animation per mission and control of that animation would entirely be up to the sexp.  The sexp would have to set what frame gets shown at any given time.  Another option is to just have a sexp that starts/stops an animation but upon stopping it would reset to it's 0 position to start again from the beginning.  That's not a very flexible system though so I don't know how useful that would be in general.

Eg, it could be used to make a nice new super nova effect.

Hehe, yeah that was the idea I had.  

BTW, what's the deal with the Interface at the moment?
Will eff be supported in the mainhall etc yet?

EFF is great for the way effects work but totally unsuited for how animations work on the interface.  That was on purpose though, I didn't want to compromise the flexibility of EFF in order to have it work in the interface.  The intention was to create another format which could be used on the interface, which is better suited for that purpose and meets requirements requested by mod makers.

The new format will be a container format and only use JPG encoded frames.  The image quality isn't as important in the interface art which is why JPG is easy to get away with.  It allows non-power-of-2 frames (unlike DDS) so that it can easily replace existing artwork.  It also compresses very well so would be easier to distribute.  Each frame can have it's own compression ratio so where you need better image quality you can have it and where you don't you can save disk space.  Each frame will automatically be a keyframe as well so all of the ani effects (forward, backward, loop, ping-pong) will work on every file.  The creation utility will allow you to tweak quality settings per frame or on a global basis.

I halted development on this in order to bugfix for 3.6.7 but I'll pick it up again not too long after release and finish it.  This is one of my three main projects for post 3.6.7, the other two being all new pilot code designed from scratch to handle mods and new io code supporting multiple joysticks and more buttons/configs.

I was going to suggest at one point, of having an in-engine interface. So it loads a FRED mission which is basically just a pretty scene. The GUI being a 2d overlay.

WMCoolmon was working towards this with the Lab but I don't know exactly how far he plans to take it.

[Bobboau]

just thinking, what happens if you put a VP file within a VP file?

[taylor]

Originally posted by Bobboau
just thinking, what happens if you put a VP file within a VP file?

I had the same thought but haven't actually tested it.  I don't think it would work though and would just get ignored with the current code.  I'm kinda curious if it could be made to work but knowing what I do about CFILE I think it would get pretty scary.  I'll probably look into that in detail at some point though.

[Black Wolf]

Originally posted by Bobboau
just thinking, what happens if you put a VP file within a VP file?

Universe destroying infinite loop?

[Grug]

Awsome, sounds good for what you have planned Taylor.

With the in-engine GUI, it wouldn't even have to be fully fledged models though that would be nice. I imagine some sort of utility or command line editor mode where one can completly design the GUI in a 2d / 3d Object Orientated environment. Where Objects can be stylized to an extent in the editor or fully customized outside, and / or add new objects to the library of GUI pieces.

[Deepstar]

Maybe SCP needs a support for animated GIF File Backgrounds


I mean explosions in the Background or a animated Space-Battle with Beams and Lasers in Background like in the FS2 Intro should be interesting and was good for BOE Missions or the last Missions in the FS2 Main Campaign

[Grug]

Indeed.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Deepstar
Maybe SCP needs a support for animated GIF File Backgrounds

Except for the fact that GIF is a proprietary format and we can't afford the license fee.

I mean explosions in the Background or a animated Space-Battle with Beams and Lasers in Background like in the FS2 Intro should be interesting and was good for BOE Missions or the last Missions in the FS2 Main Campaign

Tell you what.  You make that mission, and we'll consider adding the feature.

Too many people ask for features with no intention of ever using them.  Or they abuse them in ways they were never designed for, like with EFF.

[Grug]

I can think of several situations within several mods that would like the in-mission controlled animation background feature...

It's only a minor thing for now, and is easy to get by without, but it is something to keep in mind for the future...

[Kazan]

put your EFFs in a vp

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Goober5000
Except for the fact that GIF is a proprietary format and we can't afford the license fee. :rolleyes:Tell you what.  You make that mission, and we'll consider adding the feature.

Too many people ask for features with no intention of ever using them.  Or they abuse them in ways they were never designed for, like with EFF.

I'd use it.  But not for a good while yet.