[aldo_14]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4632299.stm

[Flipside]

One more score for the blind fascist *******.

Oh yes, and he can't see.

To be honest, I suspect this will end up being prohibitively expensive for the government, but that won't stop them, they'll just raise taxes. David Blunkett has just put the final nail in the sign that says 'Vote Conservative' and I think that's possibly more scary than the ID cards themselves.

[Rictor]

Jesus, it takes special talent to make the Tories seem like an appealing alternative. But Blair has done it. Honestly, I hope you guys can figure out a way to fight this, but short of removing Labour from power pretty sharpish (am I correct in assuming there's not chance in hell?)...

[aldo_14]

I'm seriously considering ways to emigrate.

[Rictor]

Where? Most of the EU and the West in general has something like this, or is trying to implement it, and the less said about other countries the better. You guys are supposed to be the last bastion. It's funny to think that decades of Irish bombings never resulted in such insane legislation, and yet one attack half a world away is brought forth as justification for a blatant violation of civil liberties.

[Flipside]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4630045.stm

Two things about that list :-

1 : Other Biometric Information - bit unclear that, and if it includes DNA info, it means that you'd be able to tell who was who's father in a flash. Don't see that getting through the Lords.

2 : Date of Death - are they planning to harvest up your card when you die and store it? Sounds like 14th Century thinking to me.. 'Your Grandpa was a dissident, so that means you have dissident genes, and we must arrest you for it!'.

[IceFire]

What does this do that is not already inplace.  I think its a tremendous waste of time and money thats well above and beyond anything thats useful.

*sigh*

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Rictor
Where? Most of the EU and the West in general has something like this, or is trying to implement it, and the less said about other countries the better. You guys are supposed to be the last bastion. It's funny to think that decades of Irish bombings never resulted in such insane legislation, and yet one attack half a world away is brought forth as justification for a blatant violation of civil liberties.

Maybe Ireland; I don't think they're intending on one.  Or the Nordic countries.

I'm not, incidentally against the likes of drivers licenses, etc - wI'm against this concept of having a centrally managed, accessed, controlled register of everything I do.  Break it into disparate parts which are isolated, where the cards are optional and which combine to a non-total picture, and I'm not too bothered.  But the proposed system is basically inviting the government to record every time your id card is used; and thus record your movements, your finances (applications for a loan, etc - anything requiring your Id which is checked against this big database) and your use of government services.  Etc.

And the sole benefit is...er... the creation of a massive market for identity fraud.  Not to mention the stupidity of using them to 'prevent terrorism' - how many suicide bombers will be repeat offenders?

EDIT; interesting FAQ; http://www.privacy.org/pi/activities/idcard/idcard_faq.html#1 Point 13 illustrates what I meant above.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by IceFire
What does this do that is not already inplace.  I think its a tremendous waste of time and money thats well above and beyond anything thats useful.

*sigh*

The main thing that has stood in the way of governmental tyranny is not idealistic notions of liberty or even the fear of rebellion. It has always been simple incomptence. What they can see and hear, how they process it, how they store it, how they access it; all these are limited and imperfect. Therefore, any attempt to make the government more competent at surveillance must be seen, regardless of the motives, as an attempt to further the cause of tyranny.

It's not enough to give someone, especially a government, power with the assurance that they will not abuse it. They must not have the power at all. If they do, they will abuse it, it's as inevitable as gravity. Any threat of terrorism (and let's be honest, you're far more likely to win the lottery than fall prety to terrorism, by orders of magnitude), it supersceded by the need to maintain freedom for everyone.

[aldo_14]

Our only hope is now the complete and utter incompetence of government IT projects.

[Ford Prefect]

Come over here. We love freedom.






See?

[Unknown Target]

Haha. I used to think America was bad - at least we still have some civil liberties! You guys basically lost them all!

[Rictor]

Whatever you may think of America, they have one of the most enduring traditions of freedom at home. As far as I know, the only nations founded by opponents (or at least skeptics) of government.

[redmenace]

Unfortunatly that seems to be disapearing, often under the guise of public good. *Sigh*

[Mefustae]

Come on down to Australia! We've got Sun, We've got Surf, and remember our national motto; 'Cart your arse on in'

We won't have a program like that for at least a few years, and our Government is in such a mess at the moment, it's going to be hell for anyone who tries to bring something like that up.

[Ghost]

However, red, I think if the US ever degenerated its civil liberties to what the British now have, us citizens might get angry and shoot back, because we're allowed to have guns at the moment(if they try and take them, no no no).

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Ghost
However, red, I think if the US ever degenerated its civil liberties to what the British now have, us citizens might get angry and shoot back, because we're allowed to have guns at the moment(if they try and take them, no no no).

Are you forgetting the 'Real ID' bill tacked onto the Military spending bill passed by congress last month?  At least our House of Lords (wow, never thought I'd be relying upon those inransigent old bastards for sanity) have the power to debate individual issues rather than kow-tow to bills cynically tacked onto 'popular' legislation.

Don't think you're any better than us - that's the first mistake we made.  Just look at the Patriot Act for example.  Both the UK and US governments are systematically destroying the civil rights and values that should have been sacrosanct in both countries.

[karajorma]

There's irony for you. The unelected members of the House of Lords are a principle most liberals have diagreed with for years and now it turns out that they are acting as the only form of checks and balances against the government's plans to crush liberty.

Oh and before the Americans go off on one remember that your country is circling the drain just as badly as the UK is. No one has passed a law allowing anyone to simply seize your house to build a mall over here yet. Civil liberties are being eroded in both countries and the population is by and large too stupid to realise or do anything about it in both.

[aldo_14]

I'm (still) somewhat in favour of replacing the House of Lords with a proportional-representation elected system.  Although we might end up being ****ed under that type of arrangement, so i'm not sure.

[karajorma]

We'd definately be f**ked.  PR is a dreadful system that opens the door to fringe parties like the BNP who have no business being anywhere near govenment.

When will people learn that the inherent problem with democracy is that the general population are morons.