[Grug]

I'm working on some things at the moment, and was just wanting to get some things cleared up and gain any tips people might have to share.

Most if not all of the following query's are in regards to Fighter sized ships. For the most part, I'm getting what I know from observing the hi-poly models we already have. Mainly the Herc1 and Perseus Interceptor. Currently I use 3ds max5.1.

General model and submodel setups.

Ok from what I've gathered, a good layout would be to have the overall hull model by its self. This includes most of the details and structural pieces over the cockpit.
An additional submodel is also sometimes evident, which holds any extra greebles and bits and pieces of details. (aka as on Bob's Herc1 model)
A seperate submodel for the cockpit.

Is it okay to make certain pieces of the hull using seperate objects, and then just attach them to the main hull object to make them part of it, without welding them into the mesh?
Is it okay to leave certain pieces 'unsealed', where an inside facing piece will never be seen. Should those pieces still have faces to seal them off?
I'm unsure if that would effect anything currently ingame, or if it will effect anything in the future.

Debris chunks / submodels.

It would seem that the average setup here is usually five chunks of the ship, one including the pilot.

What poly count it best for debris though?
The herc1 is relatively low poly, where as the Perseus chunks are quite high for debris. What's the optimum setup there?

Texture setups.

From what I've seen there is usually:
- 1 Texture for the main hull submodel and details submodel
- 1 Texture for the cockpit submodel
- 1 Texture for the glass faces
- 1 Texture for each LOD


I think that's it for now, but any additional questions, tips and pointers please add.

[Nuke]

well you must have your glass as part of the hull model, theres another thread about that.

[Grug]

Oh yeah, my bad. It's part of the main hull submodel, but uses a seperate texture.

[Nico]

Originally posted by Grug
Is it okay to make certain pieces of the hull using seperate objects, and then just attach them to the main hull object to make them part of it, without welding them into the mesh?

clipping isn't a pb anymore, so yes. Actually, you'll avoid a few trouble especially with smoothing, if you don't extrude the little details out of the mesh, and just put them "on" it. Will also save a ludicrous amount of polys. I should have done that for the ezy.

Is it okay to leave certain pieces 'unsealed', where an inside facing piece will never be seen. Should those pieces still have faces to seal them off?

yeah, it is ok, and no, you don't need to waste polys for that.

I'm unsure if that would effect anything currently ingame, or if it will effect anything in the future.

Debris chunks / submodels.

It would seem that the average setup here is usually five chunks of the ship, one including the pilot.

the pilot was for fun

What poly count it best for debris though?
The herc1 is relatively low poly, where as the Perseus chunks are quite high for debris. What's the optimum setup there?

that's how you feel, I guess. debris fly far away pretty fast, especially fighter debris, so they won't be rendered for long, so resource drain isn't a issue.

Texture setups.

From what I've seen there is usually:
- 1 Texture for the main hull submodel and details submodel
- 1 Texture for the cockpit submodel
- 1 Texture for the glass faces
- 1 Texture for each LOD

it is definitly not required to have a separate map for the cockpit. It's just it was more handy that way. glass cockpit, well, I don't remember. If the the transparency thing can be done just on one area of the map, same deal. If not, well, obviously, it has to be separate.

[Bobboau]

"yeah, it is ok, and no, you don't need to waste polys for that."
at the moment open meshes don't cause problems, but in the future it will, shadows will, for example, be totaly fuct., there is no way around this other than rebuilding your model after these come in, or specifying the model as not casting shadows.

[Nuke]

will shadows exclude the interior mesh? because of interiors have their window faces deleted so as not to render transparency over everything.would i have to wwitch to closed faces with the invisible texture?

[Bobboau]

I supose a material specific flag could be made to get around that.

closeing faces with the invisable texture would probly be a good option. but I'm not sure what the behavior will be, we'll probly have to make it ignor invisable faces to allow the default ships to work corectly.

[Grug]

Thanks Nico. ^_^

Originally posted by Bobboau
"yeah, it is ok, and no, you don't need to waste polys for that."
at the moment open meshes don't cause problems, but in the future it will, shadows will, for example, be totaly fuct., there is no way around this other than rebuilding your model after these come in, or specifying the model as not casting shadows.

I suspected shadows might be a problem for the non-attached sections. But why will unsealed portions of ships cause stuff ups?
Most of those bits are usually fairly tiny and are within the main hulls model.

Thanks for the help guys.

[Nico]

Originally posted by Bobboau
"yeah, it is ok, and no, you don't need to waste polys for that."
at the moment open meshes don't cause problems, but in the future it will, shadows will, for example, be totaly fuct.  

Why? Can't see the reason.

And you're bound to have horrible pbs, if that's true. Take the Volition ships, I think all the turrets have their base poly removed, for exemple. I know there's holes in many of their ships. What will you do about that? Redo all the V ships that have pbs?

[karajorma]

It's a good excuse for making hi-poly versions

[Bobboau]

the only thing I can do to get around problems like that is to hack in some sort of solution.

it's a complex issue and it has to do with silloette determenation, and shadow volume construction. if the shadow volume is not totaly sealed it won't work properly, if the geometry that the shadow volume is made from isn't sealed then you can't make the shadow volume seals all the time.

[Nico]

Mmh... wouldn't it just be simpler to use shadow maps? Your way seems kindda complicated to me. And I'm pretty sure there's a lot of ships (V ones or user ones) that won't like that system.

[Grug]

If this is indeed a possible problem, you should get the word out now really. I know I'll be reworking the model I was working on by capping of opened edges...
Using the attached shapes thing is going to be 100x better, and will probably make up for the faces required to cap all those unsealed parts.

[Nuke]

most of my meshes are closed, the only exception wouyld be the cockpits in my ships.

[Grug]

It's a pain in the arse to close everything.

Might as well start over. Should be able to make a better model this time anyways.

[Nuke]

if your modeling in truespace you usually cant have open faces if you want to continue modeling. just use solidify and it should patch all the holes for you.

[Grug]

*Shudders at mention of Truespace*

No, I avoid TS like the plague.
I use 3dsMax for near all things 3d...

The problem is I havn't touched Max for over a year and a bit, so I'm a little rusty these days, and thus things take longer for me to do...

[Nuke]

doesnt max have a cap holes modifer?

[Grug]

Yup, but it doesn't work the way I want it too when it comes to sliced donut shapes.

I could do it all manually, but I'm thinking starting over would be better anywho.