[IceFire]

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
Global warming was a huge right wing conspiracy to cause lots of hurricanes to smack flordia so that the locals would be happy when bush got a chance to give them billions in relief aid so that they would vote for him and push him to victory. It was planned years ago when they found out that flordia would be tough to win. So they built all these huge secret government facilites to generate greenhouse gases and they detonated these high explosives in the antartic to break ice off to melt to cause global warming. Now that nothing can be done and we are all going to die, they are denying it every happened.

Actually i dont believe a damn thing i just said but im sure somebody does. There is so much contradicting evidence on the part of the scientific community that the only 'evidence' they have of globabl warming is that the temperatures in certian climates which havent changed very much in the last 50 years of recording are slightly changing. In planetary terms, 50 years is a split second compared to thousands. Its just political bs imo.

Keep in mind that most of the contradictory information is because of one of these reasons:
1) The research was done by corporations that have high stakes vested in heavily polluting industries
2) The new research partially contradicts the old because the variables are so numerous and difficult to predict
3) The government backs both points of view to keep research going but without actually having to do anything

Its political BS yes...But please tell me you don't believe that dumping thousands of tonnes of CO2, methane, and other gasses into the atmosphere has no effect on our planets ecology and that we shouldn't do something about ****ing up our planet.

Because thats what were doing.

The planet goes through natural warming and cooling processes.  We're probably going through a natural warming...but we're also dumping all sorts of crap into the equation and if that tipes the scales between a minor change and the onset of an iceage, runaway greenhouse effect, or the ultimate destruction of the ecology then we're really screwed because we have no where to go.

[karajorma]

From what I've seen climatologists are saying that by around 2025 global warming will become irreversable regardless of what we do to limit mankinds production of greenhouse gases. By then it will be warm enough to trigger the release of methane from the methane hydrate traps in the ocean.

The sad thing is that this isn't new. The scientists have been banging on about this for nearly 30 years and very little evidence has been produced to show that they're wrong.

[Roanoke]

I see America is refusing to even entertain the idea. Global Warming is debateable but it seems the Bush Admin is once again going out of their way to isolate themselves from the rest of the developed world

[aldo_14]

Essentially, Bush isn't willing to make any sort of sacrifice that will benefit the rest of the world rather than the US.

[Unknown Target]

Originally posted by karajorma
From what I've seen climatologists are saying that by around 2025 global warming will become irreversable regardless of what we do to limit mankinds production of greenhouse gases. By then it will be warm enough to trigger the release of methane from the methane hydrate traps in the ocean.

What happens then?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Unknown Target


What happens then?

Massive global warming; Methane is apparently 20 times more efficient than Carbon Dioxide at trapping heat in the atmosphere.

This has been responsible for at least 2 mass extinctions; including the Permian extinction 250m years ago, that nearly wiped out all lif on earth - 94% of oceanic life died, oxygen levels plumetted, it took about 20-30m years for the coral reefs to regrow and about 100m for ecosystems to recover to the same extent as before..

It's believed that was caused by CO2 emissions from volcanic activity.  Humanity is capable of the same output levels.

[EtherShock]

Originally posted by aldo_14
Essentially, Bush isn't willing to make any sort of sacrifice that will benefit the rest of the world rather than the US.

He might not, but individual communities, such as Seattle  are supporting it. It's a small step, but it's at least something to get the ball rolling.

For now, I'll just link to the main site.

[DeepSpace9er]

We're breaking records here....ones that were set 100 years ago or more in some cases.

Ok granted, but what caused incredible warming 100 years ago, when the population was MUCH smaller industry was MUCH smaller?

Plus this is just a snapshot in one place. So are you going to tell me also that record colds in the winter is also caused by global warming?

So i guess after 2025 we are all doomed, New York will become the north pole, Americans will flock to mexico to save themselves ALL because the selfish US didnt want to destroy its economy to satisfy the demands of some scientists pumping out this bilge.

Chew on this:

http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050502/full/050502-8.html

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000ED75C-D366-1212-8F3983414B7F0000

http://www.livescience.com/environment/050629_lopsided_planet.html

http://www.livescience.com/environment/050629_fresh_water.html

Wierd Junk Science

[IceFire]

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er


Ok granted, but what caused incredible warming 100 years ago, when the population was MUCH smaller industry was MUCH smaller?

I don't think you grasp the concept.  We're CONSISTENTLY breaking records that are hundred or fifty years old on a regular basis.

Its not that it hasn't been this warm, or this wet, or this dry, or this destructive (when you talk about storms) before....but that its happening all at the same time, in the same years in a row over and over again.

You're unfortunately amongst that average percentage of the population that doesn't understand, doesn't care, and is quite happy to go along feeling happy that they have no idea what sort of devastation we're creating just to live a certain way of life.

Furthermore, the average warming of the entire planet by several degrees C has massive impacts all across the world changing climates and affecting the way weather operates.  Yes some areas may be colder in climate depending on how winds, water, and the like shift around.  Some of the record colds that have been racking up in places where continental flows, determined in part by airflow around the equator (where it generally is very warm and getting warmer), become stronger and have an extreme cooling effect during the winter and an extreme heating effect during the summer.

Most of those articles you've got there present new theories and new ideas in the field.  All of the scientific community (or nearly there so) knows that there is a global warming effect occuring.  Average temperatures globally are up (in the 1-2 degree range).  What they disagree on is why and how much humans have an impact.  Some disagree that the large quanities of CO2 in the atmosphere are having any huge impact and that humanity has little ability to have an overall influence.  So in otherwords, warming is going to happen if we're here or not.  On the other hand, many support that but suggest that our influence is that we're increasing the speed and impact of the warming which adds an unstable and unknown potential into the whole equation.

What does it mean?  Weather and ecology are difficult to precisely predict...but I'll say it again...where in gods name would anyone get the idea that dumping thousands of millions of tons of toxic chemicals in watersheds, into the atmosphere (that we breath by the way!), and so on would be good for anyone?

I think you'll find that if you suck on the exhaust of your car for a few minutes you'll be quite dead.  So why is it any better to take that car, multiply it by millions of times, and then dump it into the atmosphere at large?  Its not...thats bull****.

Heat related deaths in my area are on the rise every summer.  Continually decreasing air quality (as indicated by the PPM by the Weather Channel) is taking its toll on anyone with health conditions.  I was talking to a firefighter earlier in the week...said people are falling like flies in this unseasonably hot weather and has said that he's never seen anything like it and that it keeps getting worse every year.  We we're even talking environment...just people and saving lives and such.

If people like Bush, Blair, Martin, and so on don't get their countries together, their industries and corporations in line (using a large stick if necessary), then our current way of life is going to end very badly - then of people are going to die and those of us who have been reading the reports, studying the science, and listening to those who really know, are going to say "we told you so but you ****ups were too stupid".

[karajorma]

Not a single one of those contradicts global warming (apart from the hypothesis which says that we're still to blame for it but that we started 8000 years ago).

 In fact the whole global dimming thing actually means that the greenhouse effect is worse than the predictions made in the 80 and 90s because global dimming was masking the true effects of global warming. I took global dimming into account when I stated that the deadline was around 2025 (which is why you'll find it's much closer than most predictions you'll have heard).

[Rictor]

So basically, we have 15 years or so to get our sh*t together, or nature will start pushing back?

Doesn't sound very nice, actually it sounds apocolyptic.

[karajorma]

Humanity should be able to survive global warming. It won't get warm enough that it will make us extinct or anything like that. The question is whether civilisation can deal with it.

Britain for instance is quite severely f**ked cause the gulf stream is already showing signs of shutting down. If that goes we can kiss goodbye to winters with 4-5 days of snow and look forwards to winters like Norway and Sweden get.

America is basically going to lose the entire grain belt. I've got no idea what that will do to the country but it doesn't sound good to me.

The problem is what will happen once we start getting food shortages etc in the developed world. I suspect they're going to start throwing their weight around even more than usual in an attempt to try to grab as much of the worlds resources to themselves. In a tinderbox environment like that it's possible that although Global Warming itself can't wipe us out we'll manage to do it ourselves.


BTW the Pentagon did some work on trying to figure out what effect a rise in temperature would have on the world by 2020. It was pretty chilling reading but is actually a lower rise than scientists are now starting to believe will happen.

There's an article about that here.

[aldo_14]

IIRc someone worked out the effects if the entire ice cap melted and raised the ocean level (275 ft IIRC); basically every populated area in the Uk would be wiped ouy by floods, the highlands would become physically isolated from the rest of the UK, and Ireland would virtually cease to exist.

Incidentally, one of the main concerns over global warming is not the rise in temperature, but the ever (I think exponentially) increasing rate of increase.

Incidentally, this graph indicates the rate of temperate increase since 1600;

In the likely event of us (humanity) being ****ed royally by global warming, it's not going to be solely the US' fault, of course.  But being the worlds largest produced of pollution (2nd largest per capita behind Oz), and having consistently failed to address the issue (and even pulled out of international agreements to do so) is scarcely going to make the US look the best of a bad lot.  Ultimately, it's the likes of the US (and China, etc) who have to take a lead, because not only do they produce the most, they also have the ability to finance and identify alternatives.

[DeepSpace9er]

You guys are acting like this stuff that is preached in the pulpits of labratories is gospel. These clowns cant even predict correctly or not if it is going to rain or not much less predict the end of the world in 20 years. Even if we found a nice spot in the middile of the pacific and detonated a thousand nuclear weapons, we couldnt destroy the atmosphere. Gosh in order to destroy the atmosphere the planet would have to look like Couroscant from space.

You think this civilization which 'exploits and destroys' the earth purposefully for financial gain is evil anyway, so why should you have any qualms about letting it destroy itself?

If we are going to die anyway, why should we waste our last days in fear, panic, and uncertainty about whether our foolish notions that we can fix the planet like they do in the movies, that we destroyed no less, rather than just accept our fate and get on with our lives? You know what, if the world as we know it does come to an end because of global warming, does that mean that fewer sperm will be produced because of the increase of temperature in the male gonads? We are doomed no matter what.

[Bobboau]

you know if you look at that graph it's a fairly standard geometric growth paturn, and it starts hundreds of years ago, we have plenty of evedence that there is a climate shift, but I don't beleve it qualifies as more than maybe correlative. blowing up all the cars and powerplants is not going to happen, it's an imposable goal, and imposable goals are realy nice to get people hooked on so you can controle them.

[Marauder]

Here in TO, streams off hot days, we've hit 34 Centigrade...it's only July 1st.
And in Tuytoyatuk (sp?) I believe the ice melted two weeks early around the Arctic Ocean...

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
You guys are acting like this stuff that is preached in the pulpits of labratories is gospel. These clowns cant even predict correctly or not if it is going to rain or not much less predict the end of the world in 20 years. Even if we found a nice spot in the middile of the pacific and detonated a thousand nuclear weapons, we couldnt destroy the atmosphere. Gosh in order to destroy the atmosphere the planet would have to look like Couroscant from space.

And you're qualified to be a better judge of this than thousands of experience, trained and well studied individuals why?

Decrying a common consensus by insulting the intelligence of the people who've come to that conclusion, is the lowest and most banal form of argument.  

If you lack the intelligence or background knowledge, or the simple willingness to look for it, to point out actual reasons for disagreeing then don't bother arguing atall.

[DeepSpace9er]

You are right, im too stupid to understand the importance and the reality of global warming, and since i dont have a degree in climatology, and not a certified 'expect' i can never talk any sense about global warming and i must listen and believe without question everything they say, even if it includes altering the way of life of every person in a civilized country.

If you want to alter the way of life of everybody just wait another 20 years and everything will chage. At least we will know if its all just a buch of bulsht or not. We will save lots of money, lots of work hours, and lots of problems. But even if it isnt 20 years, im predicting that Global Warming will go on, just the predictions will change to be 20 more years. Another thing why isnt global warming called Worldwide Warming?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
You are right, im too stupid to understand the importance and the reality of global warming, and since i dont have a degree in climatology, and not a certified 'expect' i can never talk any sense about global warming and i must listen and believe without question everything they say, even if it includes altering the way of life of every person in a civilized country.

Calling the scientists behind predictions 'clowns' as the basis of your argument would indicate you aren't able to talk sense about it, because you can't present a logical response that actually addresses the scientific issues.

you're not even asking questions, after all.  Just discounting without thought, because it might hurt you in the pocket.

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
If you want to alter the way of life of everybody just wait another 20 years and everything will chage. At least we will know if its all just a buch of bulsht or not. We will save lots of money, lots of work hours, and lots of problems. But even if it isnt 20 years, im predicting that Global Warming will go on, just the predictions will change to be 20 more years. Another thing why isnt global warming called Worldwide Warming?

And if it proves to be a problem in 20 years time?  What then? I mean, by your logic, maybe we should just wait and see if the AIDS epidemic will burn itself out and we'll develop an immunity. The principle of simply assuming nothing will happen - without even borthering to consider the consequence -  has never been a good strategy.  for anything.

Do you think this is some sort of grand conspiracy?  That all these climate researchers, biologists, etc (almost every tract of physical science has some involvement in the issue) are simply making stuff up?

[Bobboau]

what was it Bush was saying about Iraqs WMDs? we can't wait untill we loose a city? were threatened with looseing  thousands of miles of land and millions of our people alone dieing. while I am not convinced that we are the cause of the problem, there is a problem, and you seem to have a far too dismissive attitude about it, it seems, because it might hurt you politicaly.