[Rictor]

Originally posted by ngtm1r


There is continual increase, and then there is continual increase. Non-unionized workers get pay increases too, you realize. To justify their existence the unions must do better. But better is not always sane. The steel industry is ****ed because the unions pushed them too far and they could no longer stay competitive. So the steelworkers are out of their jobs now thanks to the people who are supposed to protect them.

If you want to say it like that, there is probably not one single industry, aside from service, within the US that can compete globally. Agrobusiness get subsidized, protectionist trade policy helps prop up the rest. That's not capitalism buddy, that's government handouts to help keep uncompetitive industries open. Whatever you make: grain, cars, medicine, shirts - someone in the Third World can do it for a fifth of the cost.

Originally posted by redmenace
Don't like it work some where else, or better yet get an education.

A college or university eduction was valuable back in the days when it was rare. That's no longer the case. A college graduate get **** job opportunuties, because, guess what? everyone else has a college diploma as well. Trade labourers routinely gets better pay than those with a college diploma. And this isn't too likely to change.  The rest of the world, aside from having cheap labour, also has no shortage of college grads who are harder working and willing to fight for their piece of bread. Against that, the youth of America don't stand too good a chance.

The truth is that the economy has, from what can tell, undergone some significant changes lately. First of all, more and more jobs are in the service industry, because cheap overseas labour can and does screw over the production industry as a whole. Secondly, job stability (secutity) is way down. The days of working for one company for 25 years are gone. I vaguely remember reading statistics that state that an average person, in their lifetimes, will change careers (not jobs, careers) about 5-8 times. Say hello to "workforce agility", you have to find tooth and nail to land a job, work there for two years then go through the same bloody process again.

And yes, I will admit that I have a bias against large (notice I said large) corporations and the upper classes. But to me, it only makes sense that if the majority of the population by far is of the middle-class, to fight for the rights and benefits of the middle-class. Sure, corporations do of good, but not because they want to make the world a nice, happy place. They do it because it pays. If the best way to make money is to screw the workers and the environment, that's exactly what they'll do. Hell, they'de dance on their hands if it was profitable.

[Kosh]

Against that, the youth of America don't stand too good a chance.

And when it rains it pours: The youth of America also have that crushing debt that they will have to deal with; both on a consumer and a governmental level.

But to me, it only makes sense that if the majority of the population by far is of the middle-class, to fight for the rights and benefits of the middle-class.

You're right, but that is not what is happening in reality. The number of middle class people should be growing, or at least staying the same.......but it's not. The numbers of middle class people are actually dropping.

[EtherShock]

Originally posted by Rictor
A college or university eduction was valuable back in the days when it was rare. That's no longer the case. A college graduate get **** job opportunuties, because, guess what? everyone else has a college diploma as well. Trade labourers routinely gets better pay than those with a college diploma. And this isn't too likely to change.  The rest of the world, aside from having cheap labour, also has no shortage of college grads who are harder working and willing to fight for their piece of bread. Against that, the youth of America don't stand too good a chance.

Some of us work just as hard as the next hard worker. The entire youth of the world should be concerned as rich, old farts **** with our future. (Grr, I hate censorship!) And I agree, college means crap. You'd better at least have a masters to get any attention.

But to me, it only makes sense that if the majority of the population by far is of the middle-class, to fight for the rights and benefits of the middle-class.

The poor is the largest and always will be the largest group. Otherwise the pyramid would collapse. It's just a matter of how poor is poor. The middle-class just has a louder voice, though seldom is it heard. One only needs to look at how we get screwed when it comes to college: the poor get most of the help, the rich can afford it, while the middle-class have to scrape by.

Originally posted by Kosh
The number of middle class people should be growing, or at least staying the same.......but it's not. The numbers of middle class people are actually dropping.

It should at least stay the same. In time, the middle-class will cease to exist unless the economics of the world change. The key here is how poor is poor. I see it as a bit like inflation. The poor would be better off than they were before, but compared to everyone else, still poor, if we go by the definition of possessing the least wealth. However, little has improved for them, and I fail to see better times for them, because the rich love to dominate over someone. There has to be a better system than capitalism.

[aldo_14]

AFAIK the rich-poor divide in the US is increasing rapidly, and I wouldn't be surprised to see that reflected across most of the (1st) world.

One thing about graduates; MS is moaning about there not being enough (CS) in the US (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/19/graduates_versus_kids/).  I'd suggest they come here then, because we definately have an excess........

Although, what's a 'college diploma' anyways?

[Kosh]

Although, what's a 'college diploma' anyways

I think they mean a college degree of some kind.

AFAIK the rich-poor divide in the US is increasing rapidly, and I wouldn't be surprised to see that reflected across most of the (1st) world.

As I understand it, it isn't happening in the rest of the developed world. I could be wrong.


But about a month ago, I heard the CEO of Intel say that his company "doesn't need to hire another american". They can just hire oversees in China and India.


EDIT: Btw, I just thought of another example of corperate evil: The pharmasuetical industry!

Pfizer is making billions of net revenue while they keep drug prices sky high. Many poor people here, and many people in the developing world either cannot afford these extravegant prices, or they simply do not have access to it. They often don't have access to generic alternatives either because Pfizer and other pharmasuetical companies block the generics from being able to produce them. So while Pfizer makes billions and billions of dollars, people are dieing because of their greed.

[aldo_14]

I thought colleges didn't do degrees?

[Kosh]

College technicly means a 2 year post high school school, but people often use it to refer to 4+ year universities too.


But you can get a Ascociates Degree from a community college.

[aldo_14]

And what is an Associates Degree, then?

[Kosh]

A 2 year degree. Bachelors takes 4, etc....

[EtherShock]

A bachelors is only supposed to take 4, but a lot of people take longer because of the academic bueraucracy/BS, at least here in the States. I think the average is 5 years. This will be my 5th year in college.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Kosh
A 2 year degree. Bachelors takes 4, etc....

Sounds like an HND or something.  Which isn't really all that good (about the first 2 years of a 'proper' degree in UK terms).

[redmenace]

Originally posted by Kosh
Pfizer is making billions of net revenue while they keep drug prices sky high. Many poor people here, and many people in the developing world either cannot afford these extravegant prices, or they simply do not have access to it. They often don't have access to generic alternatives either because Pfizer and other pharmasuetical companies block the generics from being able to produce them. So while Pfizer makes billions and billions of dollars, people are dieing because of their greed.

People are not dying because of high prices, they die because of disease. Drugs ARE NOT A RIGHT. They are a life enhancing product. Nothing Pfizer does kills anyone. And in addition to this, do you have ANY idea how long and how much money it takes to develope and test drugs. This not to mention the amount of insurance that they have to purchase because of their industry. But the bottom line, you want to call them evil for what? Meeting a demand? They do not to cause anyone grief.

[Zarax]

Originally posted by redmenace
People are not dying because of high prices, they die because of disease. Drugs ARE NOT A RIGHT. They are a life enhancing product. Nothing Pfizer does kills anyone. And in addition to this, do you have ANY idea how long and how much money it takes to develope and test drugs. This not to mention the amount of insurance that they have to purchase because of their industry. But the bottom line, you want to call them evil for what? Meeting a demand? They do not to cause anyone grief.

Meh, only in a social darwinism drugs are not a right.
The skewed view many people got about profit being the first priotity is just sickening.

The fact you're supporting a crippled welfare state doesn''t mean it's right.

In any serious democratic system life saving drugs are available to everyone, because it's one of the main ways to ensure the same starting chances to everyone.

Enjoy your social inequality and income divide, US is running to its economical collapse and you refuse to recognize it...

The change from a market economy to a corporativist one is subtle but devastating, nonetheless you're going there.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by redmenace
People are not dying because of high prices, they die because of disease. Drugs ARE NOT A RIGHT. They are a life enhancing product. Nothing Pfizer does kills anyone. And in addition to this, do you have ANY idea how long and how much money it takes to develope and test drugs. This not to mention the amount of insurance that they have to purchase because of their industry. But the bottom line, you want to call them evil for what? Meeting a demand? They do not to cause anyone grief.

What about the use of generic AIDs drugs in Africa?  Or paying for cancer drugs that can cost thousands of pounds per year?

Supply and demand is not the right way to price medicine; it might be the most profitable, but it's far from being the most humane.  It's bad enough having a price tag put on a right to life, but it's pretty damn unforgiveable when a generic alternative is withheld from people who  will never, ever be able to afford the RRP (the average wage in  - for example - Mali is $275 per year; how can they afford drugs charged at 100s of dollars per dose).

[Ace]

Originally posted by redmenace
People are not dying because of high prices, they die because of disease. Drugs ARE NOT A RIGHT. They are a life enhancing product.

Is that how you sleep every night?

This is what I hate, the bull**** hypocrysy.

People who trumpet absolute morality, etc. etc. and yet are perfectly willing to justify the death of people. Deaths that did not have to occur.

Where is your absolute morality now? Did these people deserve to die? Oh, god loves successful people... they weren't successful and so were sinners and deserved to die then.

I hate the hypocrysy, I hate the hubris. The ones who should be suffering from the lack of drugs, from their own decisions, are the ones not effected.

[Zarax]

Originally posted by Ace


Is that how you sleep every night?

This is what I hate, the bull**** hypocrysy.

People who trumpet absolute morality, etc. etc. and yet are perfectly willing to justify the death of people. Deaths that did not have to occur.

Where is your absolute morality now? Did these people deserve to die? Oh, god loves successful people... they weren't successful and so were sinners and deserved to die then.

I hate the hypocrysy, I hate the hubris. The ones who should be suffering from the lack of drugs, from their own decisions, are the ones not effected.

Basically: "help them but not with my money".

But you shouldn't be surprised.
That's what happens when you are educated from childhood to think almost exclusively using competitive logic.

In these theories you should help the others only when you have a return on investment capable to outmarket your competitors, otherwise it's just a loss of efficency.

The fact this efficency is mostly short to mid term based doesn't matter to them as long as they can find new demand for their offer.

Very few politicians (minority ones of course) have the courage to admit this is a doomed strategy in the long term, as it applies the pretense of infinite growth to a universe with limited and dwindling resources.

What they mistakes for economical growth is nothing more than capital concentration, a trend that brings always diminishing benefits (law of diminishing returns, another staple of market economy) until it reaches a point of no growth and crisis.

What is happening in many cases is that progressive governments are routinely telling the various corporations to give tolerable terms for the local economy (and so not even giving drugs or other goods for free), giving an aut aut (latin terms for "my way or no way") to corporations.

Notably south africa and many south american countries are now producing the drugs at generic prices, paying to the US corporations only a minimal part of the IP fee they asks.
Nonetheless you aren't seeing Pfizer, Novartis or something other big corp declaring bankruptcy because of that.

In thruth they are still making a profit from that, only a smaller one.

The problem with many western economies today is that they are switching from maket based to corporativism, which means a level of concentration so high that allows businesses to control various levels of a society including politics, giving them the capability to stop any real competition (collusive oligopoly is worse than monopoly) but avoid any real antitrust measure because they are still nominallly competitors.

The US healthcare is the best example of that:

Despite their pride, US is ranked 34th in the world, behind nations like Croatia.
This is because private control in sectors where the demand is quite unflexible to the price kills competition allowing business to screw badly the market if left unchecked.
The top five healthcare systems are public ones, where the private clinics are for those who wants a 5 stars hotel environment while sick, basically paying for the luxury.

Getting back to the main topic, worker unions aren't made to make the workers fat rich, but to ensure minimal standard of safe working conditions and fair wages.

You don't want to work on minimum wage in the US, nad that wage isn't going up anytime soon because the workers doesn't have the strength to claim its arisal anymore.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Zarax
Despite their pride, US is ranked 34th in the world, behind nations like Croatia.

They're behind Croatia now?! In the 2000 survey they were a mere 6 places ahead (which was pathetic in its own way because Croatia wasn't long out of the war).

[aldo_14]

How do they rank that?  Because if it's based on general quality, I'd be shocked -given the obscene prices the US health service charges.  Thank god for the NHS; it might be badly run, creaking to bits and full of underpaid fowk, but at least they don't ask for a credit card before re-attaching a severed digit.

[Zarax]

Originally posted by aldo_14
How do they rank that?  Because if it's based on general quality, I'd be shocked -given the obscene prices the US health service charges.  Thank god for the NHS; it might be badly run, creaking to bits and full of underpaid fowk, but at least they don't ask for a credit card before re-attaching a severed digit.

I don't really know the exact criteria, it's likely a mix of average quality and accessibility, what matter is that it comes from an unbiased source.

[aldo_14]

If it's accessibility, the Us is ****ed.....