Author Topic: Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism  (Read 14199 times)

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Offline Kazan

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Yes trashman but that doesn't excuse the usag eof the word "sick"

they're different - their genetic difference isn't retarding normal development: it's making their normal development different.
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Offline aldo_14

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan


I recall reading about some experiments preformed on mice. The researches damadged a gene on purpose (don't recall what that gene name was) in one group and they left the other group alone.
The mice with the damaged gene started avoiding the opposite sex and constatnly spent time with their own.. and exibited other..behaviour.
It appears that we humans have the same gene as do all (or most) mammals.

However, this research is still in early stages so we have to wait for the final results.

Be it as it may, it does provide a very logical explanation to homosexual behaviour...

Fistrly gay people normally say that it's not their choce but that they were born that way and tehy can't help it but being as they are.
Second, it allso explains why it isn't an inherant feature.


I'm not sure that's correct, because there is already a myriad of evidence indicating that sexual orientation is not dependent upon genetics.  For example, the earlier study by Hamer citing X28 as a 'gay' gene has been examined in 3 further studies.  2 shown a much weaker correlation, the 3rd none atall.  One studied twins - genetically identical - and found a 52% rate at which both were gay.  Fraternal brothers (i.e. not genetically identical) had a 22% rate where both were gay.  Whilst there is a significant gap between 52 and 22%, it's not large enough to indicate genetics are solely responsible.

I think there was also a severe statistical flaw in the original experiment in that Hamers experiment lacked a heterosexual control group (the subjects were 40 gay brothers - all male - some twins and some not); also that experiment had 7 pairs of the brothers not coinheriting the x28 gene (which at the very least indicates it would not be the sole genetic reason).

AFAIK the current general 'conclusion' (i.e. all that is known) is that a combination of genetic factors can influence the development of sexual identity and orientation, but that the effect of environment is cannot be ruled out as a significant factor in the latter.

Can you actually elaborate on said experiment with the mice (particularly what 'other behaviour' means?  All I've found so far is an experiment to try and 'breed' behaviour into a  set of 8 groups of mice, divided between environments.  In that experiment, it was found that behaviour was determined by environment above genetics, so obviously isn't what you mean.  Other risk is in interpreting results; whether or not the behavioural result of a genetic change is actual homosexuality is a matter of interpretation and guesswork.

Of course, the existence of a gay gene doesn't make it a defect or illness any more than having, say, genes for ginger hair does.  Implying having different genes makes one sick or diseased is obviously complete rubbish, as we all have some degree of variance in genetics.

In fact, I'd argue that whether or not homosexuality has a genetic basis is irrelevant (my personal hope is that there is not a genetic basis simply because you'd have some warped nutters preaching eugenics).  Classification as it as a defect or illness, however, is wrong regardless.

 
Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
I think the entymology of marriage might actually include a religious component or a specific heterosexual origin (can someone clarify the meaning of 'maritus' for me?), anyways.


This was the best I could find:

Marriage
Marry

It says nothing about a religious reference in the word, just some sort of union, possibly between a man and woman, doesn't completely clarify, could just be anyone.

 

Offline Kazan

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
the catholic church sanctified homosexual marriages in the 3rd century.. and that's just a christian example - there are much much older examples of homosexuality and bisexuality being acceptable
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Offline mikhael

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
Alright, guys, take a deep breath and repeat after me: there's no such thing as "hatespeech".

People do not, and should not, have the right not to be insulted, belittled, mocked and demonized. If I met Hitler on the street, I would beat him to death, but I would not forbid him to hand out pamphlets or speak on the street corner.

They have every right not to be physically assaulted, to be granted the same freedoms under the law as everyone else, to participate in the democratic system etc etc. Speech is not, and in my eyes will never be - must never be - a crime.

If I saw Hitler on the street, I would beat him to death, but I would not forbid him to hand out pamphlets and give speeches.


Oh, what? You all saw that coming.


I'm with you on this one, Rictor. I think hatespeech laws are every bit as screwed up as the ideas they're supposed to protect people from.
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Offline Kazan

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
If speech is intended to convey imminent threat from one person to another then one of the people is abusing their right to freespeech - abuses are not protected expressions.
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Offline mikhael

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Issuing a threat, one person to another, is assault in most, if not all, jurisdictions. Its already covered, and extra laws are unncecessary.
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Offline Stealth

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Quote
Originally posted by Maeglamor
[color=66ff00]

The fantastic thing about the 'gay people are born wrong' argument is that surely God made them that way on purpose, him being the creator of the universe and everything in it etc. etc.

Thus it would stand to reason that not only is God not against being gay, he fully endorses it. Any counter argument in reference to this fact simply means that you're attempting to thwart God's divine plan and that you are in fact, evil.
[/color]


God also makes people who have the urge to rape, murder, and have sex with children.  therefore God must also fully endorse these above crimes
... just wanted to point out how void your point was.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2005, 09:25:31 am by 594 »

 

Offline aldo_14

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Quote
Originally posted by Stealth


God also makes people who have the urge to rape, murder, and have sex with children.  therefore God must also fully endorse these above crimes
... just wanted to point out how void your point was.


There is no rape, murder or paedophile gene AFAIK.  So your comparison is surely moot.

EDIT; given that Maegs point related to the existance of a gene predelicting homosexuality

Quote
Originally posted by EtherShock


This was the best I could find:

Marriage
Marry

It says nothing about a religious reference in the word, just some sort of union, possibly between a man and woman, doesn't completely clarify, could just be anyone.


I think it was that latter bit;
rom maritus "married man, husband," of uncertain origin, perhaps ult. from "provided with a *mari," a young woman
That I saw used in relation to maritus.

Which is all very oblique and somewhat irrelevant, I recognise.  IMO marriage is possibly more associated with the church aspect, but then again it's also synonymous with the civil registry aspect too, so I dunno.

Hopefully my earlier meaning was clear enough, though.

 

Offline Rictor

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
aldo: I don't think it's really a great mystery. Formal religion evolved out of tribal rites, and as such was not intended to adhere to a modern  sense of logic. You can't reconcile religion with reason, and that's not something I fault it for. It's just not part of the job description. The answer is not "We do this and this because it makes sense" but rather "We do this and this because that's the way it supposed to be done". I hear people trying to debate in favour of creationism or against homosexuality using rational arguementation, and I can't help but think that they completely miss the point. The reason why it's such a controversial thing right now is because, in a nushell, the people who sacrifice oxen to the appease the gods and the people who don't are trying to sit down and agree on a world view. Which, needless to say, is a bit tricky.

It's part and parcel of being human. I would not support extending reason to every sphere of life, because in my opinion it would be the end of humanity as such. You take the good, you take the bad.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Don't think what's really a great mystery?

 

Offline Rictor

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Why people hold the views that they do. Sorry, I was reffering to your last post on Page 3.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
K.  My page view is different, so I have no idea which post you mean :)

It's not so much that a mystery, I guess, in the reasons why they hold them, I just don't understand it (why they chose those reasons) personally in certain cases.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2005, 11:32:54 am by 181 »

 

Offline Kazan

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Rictor logic should be extended to all spheres of life it belongs in [ie factual things, decision making, etc] - and emotion should be left to where it belongs [love]
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Offline Martinus

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Quote
Originally posted by Stealth


God also makes people who have the urge to rape, murder, and have sex with children.  therefore God must also fully endorse these above crimes
... just wanted to point out how void your point was.

[color=66ff00]What aldo said.

Also I wasn't making a point on my own behalf, I was simply pointing out that the fundies have to accept that they could be wrong if the 'disease' as they call it is genetic.
More simple logic than anything else.
[/color]

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Quote
Originally posted by Kazan

Rictor logic should be extended to all spheres of life it belongs in [ie factual things, decision making, etc] - and emotion should be left to where it belongs [love]
[/B]
You must really love the Christian Right.
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Offline Kazan

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
ford you cannot tell me that you haven't seen my rantings in the past?

If i were to discover FTL travel i would take atheists/agnostics to comprise my settlers and fleet officers and i would proceed to blockade all exit from Sol
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Offline Ford Prefect

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Yes, indeed I have. They are very logical rants, totally devoid of any of that irrational emotion that has no place in such spheres of life.
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Offline Kazan

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
indeed and what most people don't see is as strongly logic-based i am in places where appropriate i am just as strongly emotion-based in the [relatively] few places emotion is appropriate
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Offline Black Wolf

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
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Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Yes, indeed I have. They are very logical rants, totally devoid of any of that irrational emotion that has no place in such spheres of life.


:lol:


Kazan, whilst I more or less support you in this topic... owned. :lol:
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