Author Topic: "Coming in June 2001!!!"  (Read 11274 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Reci was frankly a ****ed up project.  I managed it poorly, and I accept that - and have learned from it.  It's why I try discourage newcomers wanting to make stupidly huge uber-campaigns....

But at the same time, I trust the judgement of the people behind the big campaigns - MT, TVW, MG, BWO, etc - to make these decisions.  I think it's worth noting that IIRC the main reason OTT - and the Descent campaign prior - was cancelled was a lack of FREDers, not overrunning on features.  

(hopefully, FRED academy is preventing that from happening again ;) )

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
I'm doing my damnest to make sure that people who want to learn to FRED can do so as easily as possible. Hopefully that will result in less cancelled projects due to a lack of FREDders rather than all of the people who went through the academy rushing off to do their own campaigns. Either way at least the FREDders have more of an appreciation of what to do with FRED and what people like in a mission. :)

Quote
Originally posted by Blaise Russel
I disagree somewhat. Firstly, missions are wasted no matter the size of the project. While models and music and such can survive intact and live again in another campaign, if a project reaches core-content-production stage and then keels over, that's FREDtime wasted right there.


The problem with the kind of campaign I'm on about is that they're the kind started by someone who's just learned FRED and decides to go off and make their own campaign. Occasionally they do a good job but quite often they don't and get bored or get a better idea and abandon the project halfway through.
 I made that mistake myself with TMA and although it isn't abandoned (I plan to rewrite it) all my early work has been. So that's 6 months worth of work and around 20 FREDded missions not precisely down the drain (TMA was were I learned to FRED) but with no disernable end product.

The FA was in part designed to prevent that. FREDders learn in a way that gives the community viable missions while avoiding newbish mistakes (Which is what really killed TMA. The campaign is technically quite good but the plotline isn't something I'm too proud of :D )

The big campaigns on the other hands avoid that pretty much. With lots of people they can avoid newbish mistakes and even if they do fail they contain stuff like mods and effects which can be salvaged. When TMA v1 was abandoned all that was salvaged was my increased knowledge of FRED (A prize I hold dear but no one else can grab a joystick and play it :D ). The problem with newbie campaigns is that they are almost 100% unsalvagable. (And that is especially sad for me as Gordian's Knot Part II from TMA is probably the best mission I ever FREDded).

Quote
Originally posted by Blaise Russel
Secondly, I'd argue that 'small' projects that never make it are more 'big' than 'small'. They're not as big as the very big ones, but it seems to me that a campaign that is too ambitious for its maker automatically becomes 'too big'. Then again, 'big' is relative. Is a thirty, forty mission campaign big for me? What about a new fighter model? A whole fleet list? A music track? How about two? And for someone else? What about a team of people? A team of people that aren't overstretched? Hmm...


I was refering to big in the terms used on this thread. I.e lots of effects and new models etc. It's possible for any campaign of any size to be too much for the designer.

Quote
Originally posted by Blaise Russel
Regardless, I'd still like to see more small projects... I mean, sort of taking the model scene and expanding it, so people are releasing single missions and mini-campaigns and less mod-dependant projects and things. But this is more an extension of my own design philosophy.


I wouldn't complain about having more single missions and mini-campaigns. I think the FRED contest was a step in the right direction there. Not something I'll be doing much of cause quite frankly I don't like FREDding unless I've included at least 5 events so labyrithine that I've pulled hair out over them but I'm sure that most FREDders prefer to work in a way less condusive to male-pattern baldness. So I can't see why there shouldn't be more of that. :)
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline BlackDove

  • Star Killer
  • 211
  • Section 3 of the GTVI
    • http://www.shatteredstar.org
No and No.

 
Quote
Originally posted by StratComm
And I honestly missed voices in Derelict.  I'd hate to see something as story-centric as BWO get released without voice, if just because I want the full experience the first time I play it.


Precisely. What some people fail to realize is that releasing things like Voice Patches AFTER the fact ruins immersion. Take the Raider Wars Voice Acting. After playing it the first time around w/o Voices, I knew everything that would happen or be said. So, when the end product came around (RW 2.0), I ended up somewhat bored with the new material. "Blah blah blah Raiders, blah blah blah Heard it all before Blah..." I ended up skipping a bunch of it, and it had a FAR lesser impact on me than if it had been in the initial release.\

If the hosted projects want to take their time to make the Campaigns spiffy, who the **** are you people to tell them "Your taking too long?" They do this out of their own spare time and love for the community. Ever hear of "don't look a Gift horse in the mouth?" Really. None of you have a clue what is needed, how long what part of the modding takes, or how much time is available.

Leave them alone. Trust them to make a good campaign, and not overdo anything. Good work takes time, moreso when said time is limited by Real Life constraints. And remember, they don't have to do this stuff. I, for one, though, am glad they are.
Carpe Diem Poste Crastinus

"When life gives you lemons...
Blind people with them..."

"Yah, dude, penises rock." Turambar

FUKOOOOV!

 

Offline CP5670

  • Dr. Evil
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
  • 142857
Quote
I'm not talking about time management and if you're being honest neither were you. You've already mentioned in this thread that you're talking about campaigns taking too long because of more than simply bad time management. e.g

How is that a comment about time management? That's a dig at all the hosted campaigns you think are trying to do too much. Well sorry but it's not your choice how we decide to spend our time and it's pretty arrogant of you to tell us how we should spend our time when you're not willing to join a hosted campaign and have someone tell you what to do yourself.


um, how isn't it a comment about time management? I was mainly responding to the remarks about a lack of free time and professional quality requiring a lot of time, pointing out that a professional standard can still be achieved on a smaller scale as long as you plan well (and we have already seen it with some things that have already been released). If you are managing to see that as a snide against larger projects and think that I'm somehow dictating how you have to spend your time, well, that's your problem.

I am mainly saying all these things because over the years I have seen so many overambitious campaigns go under (some well known, but also many that weren't, and from well established veterans too), far more than ones that were eventually finished, and it appears that some current projects may be following the same path. I can't imagine the staff of those defunct projects were any happier about the whole affair in the end than their potential audience was.

And I honestly can't see how anything I have said can be construed as "arrogant," unless you're one of those self-important people that just can't stand the thought of someone offering advice. In any case, you seem to have completely missed my intent here. Do whatever you like. I won't say anything more about it. There is already some very good stuff available, so the rest of us will have something even if the massive projects are never finished.

Quote
Post already quoted proving that you are.


Yeah, tell me about proofs. :D How is that a complaint? I am just throwing up some suggestions based on my own experience with my and other campaigns. Turns out it wasn't such a smart idea, but I am hardly complaining.

Quote
Well if you're doing it out of a desire to just pass on advice that's fine. I'll even thank you for that one. Don't happen to agree with your advice but that's another matter.

I'm not working on MG primarily for the adoration of the community. I work on campaigns cause I enjoy it. It's my choice to work on the campaign and it's my choice to decide what level of completion is good enough. That's been pretty much the view of every single person who is currently hosting a project and I'm sure it was also your view when you had one of your own.


That's great, and you're right, I did have fun for the most part (until I lost everything, anyway). But there are apparently people who don't see it that way; just look at the comments on the first page. I know that many other game communities have modders just looking for fame, and perhaps it's justified there, but it makes less sense around here.

By the way, Derelict was fine without the voices. Sure, it would have been better with them, but that was hardly reason enough for me to not play it. I can read messages fast enough. :D The original release did have some bugs though.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2005, 07:17:30 pm by 296 »

 

Offline Goober5000

  • HLP Loremaster
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Goober5000 Productions
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
The problem with newbie campaigns is that they are almost 100% unsalvagable. (And that is especially sad for me as Gordian's Knot Part II from TMA is probably the best mission I ever FREDded).
Nah.  Release them as "outtakes" once the original campaign has been either finished or abandoned. :)

 

Offline WMCoolmon

  • Purveyor of space crack
  • 213
Maybe somebody should go and form a group of people to finish unfinished campaigns, or at least bugfix them enough to be playable and maybe add on some kind of cheesy ending.

Assuming I ever get fs2_open working again, I wouldn't mind testing. :)
-C

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
um, how isn't it a comment about time management? I was mainly responding to the remarks about a lack of free time and professional quality requiring a lot of time, pointing out that a professional standard can still be achieved on a smaller scale as long as you plan well (and we have already seen it with some things that have already been released). If you are managing to see that as a snide against larger projects and think that I'm somehow dictating how you have to spend your time, well, that's your problem.


That statement pretty much appears to say that many of the hosted projects are too big in your view. If that's not what you're saying then fine but it's what people you have agreed with were saying so you shouldn't be surprised if people see you as claiming that.

Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
And I honestly can't see how anything I have said can be construed as "arrogant," unless you're one of those self-important people that just can't stand the thought of someone offering advice.


The tone of several of the people on the hosted campaigns are too big has been pretty arrogant. When you agree with them you get lumped in with them. It's a whole lying down with dogs thing.
 If you're not telling me that I'm wasting my time and should do what you want like other people on this thread have said then fair enough.

Quote
Originally posted by Goober5000
Nah.  Release them as "outtakes" once the original campaign has been either finished or abandoned. :)


That's pretty much the plan but that can only happen after I release v2 or it will give too much away. And not many people do release outtakes (which is a pity).
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline CP5670

  • Dr. Evil
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
  • 142857
Quote
That statement pretty much appears to say that many of the hosted projects are too big in your view. If that's not what you're saying then fine but it's what people you have agreed with were saying so you shouldn't be surprised if people see you as claiming that.


I do indeed think some of the hosted projects are too big and it could end up hurting them in the long run, but that is simply my opinion and you won't find me ranting at people to cut down on them so that I can play the finished products faster. It's worth bringing to the attention of project staff though because excessively big planning and "feature creep" can occur without the designers even realizing it and it has caused cancellations many, many times before. If the staff already knows all that and is fine with it anyway or thinks it's not an issue, then that's the end of the matter. Cool?

Quote
The tone of several of the people on the hosted campaigns are too big has been pretty arrogant. When you agree with them you get lumped in with them. It's a whole lying down with dogs thing.
 If you're not telling me that I'm wasting my time and should do what you want like other people on this thread have said then fair enough.


You seem to be reading BlueFlames' posts and mixing them up with mine. We're not the same person with a double identity. :D As I said, I don't agree with his demanding attitude, but his points about feature creep leading to perpetual delays make sense. Whether or not that's a problem is up to the project staff.

And no, there is no such thing as "lying down with dogs" around here. You have been here long enough to know that any fights here don't have teams and proceed in a free for all fashion once they go on for a while. :D
« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 10:11:11 am by 296 »

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
If you say you agree with Blueflames comments and don't point out where you disagree you've shouldn't be surprised if people take you the wrong way. :) There are better ways to get your point across than hitching your wagon to someone who you know is ranting his way through the forum in the most tactless manner he can think of :D

You've also been making the assumption that none of us were aware of the danger of feature creep just cause we were disagreeing with BlueFlames or saying that we had no intention of cutting voice acting after all so I don't think either of us can claim the moral high ground on this one :D
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
There are  campaigns that aim too high and get burned as a result.

The DOTA campaign I worked on with Free Terrna was one of those - with all "cool" stuff planned - custom mainhall, loading screens, music, a new race and tons of ships and everything. And naturally it was too much.
Personally ship making has never been a problem for me, but there was too much of the other stuff and the team just dissolved.

I learned a lesson from that ans my Chapter 1 is set in FS2 period with only 4 new ships and nothing else.

Chapter 3 is supposed to be the salvaging of the DOTA project but with massice redising. I threw out everything that wasn't really necessaray (music, backgrounds, new race, etc..) and once I start it, it may actually get finished:D
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline Janos

  • A *really* weird sheep
  • 28
Quote
Originally posted by Goober5000
Nah.  Release them as "outtakes" once the original campaign has been either finished or abandoned. :)


Pilots, officers, whatever:

We may have crushed the [rebellion/insurgence/a new race], but their leader hasn't been found and we cannot be sure if he/she is dead or not. The [Shivan/Ancient/A new race] threat has been halted... for now, but we can never be sure. The leader of the [conspiracy] developed [shocking new technology] which has not yet been found. It is possible we have just bought us some time, but rest assureed that whatever we sacrifices was not in vein, because now we have [a way to Earth/new technology/philosophy/lol] and will use it to [overcome difficulties/unite ourselves/find a way back to Earth/wtf]. Also, note the [cliffhanger ending/overambitious goals for the sequel/models/Shivans].
lol wtf

 

Offline Mongoose

  • Rikki-Tikki-Tavi
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
  • This brain for rent.
    • Minecraft
    • Steam
    • Something
Quote
Originally posted by Janos


Pilots, officers, whatever:

We may have crushed the [rebellion/insurgence/a new race], but their leader hasn't been found and we cannot be sure if he/she is dead or not. The [Shivan/Ancient/A new race] threat has been halted... for now, but we can never be sure. The leader of the [conspiracy] developed [shocking new technology] which has not yet been found. It is possible we have just bought us some time, but rest assureed that whatever we sacrifices was not in vein, because now we have [a way to Earth/new technology/philosophy/lol] and will use it to [overcome difficulties/unite ourselves/find a way back to Earth/wtf]. Also, note the [cliffhanger ending/overambitious goals for the sequel/models/Shivans].

Hehe, so true. :lol: It reminds me of a line from a website that featured all of these absolutely terrible ideas for HL2 mods; in the realm of FS2 campaigns, your average story is, "It has been x years since Capella went supernova.  Go!" :p

 

Offline WMCoolmon

  • Purveyor of space crack
  • 213
Or TNG:
Quote
PLOT SUMMARY:
The Enterprise arrives at a (Planet/ship/space station). (Picard/RIker/Worf/Deanna/The Entire Bridge Crew) procede to (the Holodeck/Transporter pad). However, the (Holodeck malfunctions/Transporter malfunctions/Klingons attack/Romulans attack/aliens sneak onboard/Politician they are meeting is an idiotic jackass). As a result, (Picard/Riker/Worf/Deanna/The Entire Bridge Crew/The whole damn ship) is put into mortal danger. Fortunately, (Data) saves them.


Voyager:
Quote
The Borg attack.

Seven of Nine walks around in a disco ball catsuit, trying hard to look like she's not simply serving as eye candy. (This is referred to as "internal conflict")

Janeway finds a way to kill the Borg.

RUN CREDITS.
-C

 

Offline Nuclear1

  • 211
I prefer Bond movies myself:

Quote

Bond meets girl.

Bond sleeps with girl.

Bond finds bad guy.

Bond watches in stupid awe as bad guy's superhuman sidekick who is possibly more badass than the actual bad guy does some random amazing trick that really could be deadly.

Girl goes bad. Bond finds good girl.

Bond kills bad girl.

Bond kills bad guy's superhuman cohort.

Bond kills bad guy.

Bond sleeps with good girl.

CREDITS.
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 

Offline IceFire

  • GTVI Section 3
  • 212
    • http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/ce
Seems I now have to defend myself.

BWO isn't done.  It was supposed to be done ages ago but it wasn't.  I'm sorry.  But lets get some things straight here.

Derelict was never my campaign, I tested it, but it was Kellan and Agatheron's work.  They planned to do voice overs and then they only did a few missions a build a mammoth campaign.  With BWO we wanted to be a bit smaller and concentrate.  Unfortunately, for the first year and a half Kellan and I kept getting bigger and people like Dark and Bobboau were offering new MODs that weren't even possible when we started the campaign (this is pre SCP by the way).

Then we got word from DaveB that FS2 source was coming so we sort of planned to be planning for the long term.  Let me tell you that building a campaign of the length and detail we have takes ages to do and it was made harder by the fact that so many of the original team left.  Of the original team, I'm the only one still in semi-existance (although its BlackDove and Ace now that are leading the charge).  For a while, it was me, and a few people who wandered back in and out.  It could have been done but things changed, people left, I started (and then finished) university, and so on and so forth.

The voice package has gone between being part of the release to being part of a later addon to being part of the release again and back again and again.  What it is now is a team decision.  I'm not confused so much as the situation has changed repeatedly over the last 4 years.

Why I am defending myself over something that I (and others) do in my spare time is something else.  These big projects take ages to do.

MT, BWO, TBP, Inferno, OTT, and countless others have either released or gone the way of the dodo.  They are huge projects, with many people involved, sometimes not always working on it for months at a time, and then finally somehow getting finished.

BD has pointed out.  We're now at a stage with BWO development where if everything died tommorow...we could release and it'd be pretty good and it'd work.  We're upgrading our work a bit and finishing off some stuff we always planned to do.

The plan is now 2 years old and we've stuck to it since it initially spiraled out of control.  When you finally DO get it...it'll be like the next expansion in the FS series.  Thats what we wanted to do...thats the sort of quality we're hoping to achieve.  For better or worse.
- IceFire
BlackWater Ops, Cold Element
"Burn the land, boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me..."

 

Offline Fury

  • The Curmudgeon
  • 213
Perhaps I should add my two cents to the discussion since the original poster used TBP as an example.

Now, what's different in TBP compared to most of the other projects hosted here? It's the fact that most projects are set in the freespace universe and are not total conversions. Of those hosted projects that are total conversions, their history does not predate as far as to year 1999 and are younger than TBP. Now that you are comparing TBP to the majority of hosted projects, which are campaign projects; has TBP really released that many missions and campaigns after all? There's old Earth-Minbari War, a whopping 5 missions long campaign. Not really comparable to most of the hosted projects. Then there is the new Raider Wars campaign, even with 16 missions it's still on the shorter end of the campaigns that the hosted projects are developing.

During TBP development, the hardest part has always been missions, especially full campaigns. Campaigns just take immeasurable time, patience and resources to be completed, especially if you add cb animations, voice acting and maybe even cutscenes since that's possible these days. Yes, TBP has done quite a lot of content, but not so much missions as it might first look like. Few of you actually know that there was a time after release of R2, when TBP was quite a dead project. One thread less in the old TBP VWBB internal and there might never have been R3 or Raider Wars. We have lost so many of our staff along the years, that it is very much a miracle that TBP managed to survive through the hard time between R2 and R3.

But in any case, the point in my post is the fact that there is not as much official missions to play as it has been made to sound. As far as I am concerned, Raider Wars is the first real TBP campaign, rest are just stand-alone missions. And for making Raider Wars true, you all should thank IPAndrews as the amount of work he did on the project is astounding.

Now TBP is also on the very same line as all other campaign projects; we need to get Earth Alliance Civil War completed. The amount of work is nowhere small and there is always the fear of the campaign being never completed in the air. It is troubful that the talented resources of the community is already reserved so we are as hard pressed to achieve any concrete results as any other project. Luckily there is the FRED Academy training up potential fredders, for which there will be need. However, having too big of a development team is not very wise either, a small and solid active team can accomplish things better than a bigger loose bunch.

Anyways, I don't see what the ruckus is really about. Everyone here have their own visions, some people have made those visions into real projects. If those people actually manage to get their project into good start, its up to them how to organize their own show. If you want to make a positive impact on development speed and efficiency, learn the skills a project needs and join up. Talking and acting are two completely different things.

Learn, act and help your favorite project. Don't get involved with more than one project (unless the job is relatively small) as you need to share your little time with all projects, effectively making you less useful. Get your job done in one project and then move on to another, of course there's no point joining up to projects you are not interested in. But some of you have mentioned certain projects by name, you know what to do other than just keep talking.

As for taking projects up to their own "professional quality" promises, even you yourself know that it is nearly impossible for us to reach the truly professional quality. Now, there are different kinds of quality, not all professional gaming companies can hold up to the industry's principles and actually develop a quality game. But it's the same for us, while it is extremely hard for any modding project to reach that quality, they can still reach very high unprofessional quality. Sometimes high unprofessional quality can surpass low professional quality, but very rarely it can surpass high professional quality. Projects should get their act together and not make promises they cannot fulfill, they don't need to market their "game" after all. The community will learn of the project's accomplishments even without any marketing ploys. But the fans following those projects should also use their own common sense and acknowledge the fact that the guys developing these projects are the same as you, just fans themselves.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2005, 01:19:11 pm by 173 »

 

Offline Noise

  • 27
    • http://www.geocities.com/noiseball2000/itdoh.html
I would like to take this time to merely point out something that I think has gone largely unnoticed.  Check my signature block, there's a link to my site with my campaign on it.  I have produced four chapters, the shortest one consisting of ten missions, and all totaled being well over fifty.  I'm just about finished the fifth chapter which actually consists of three smaller campaigns, two of them are already done.  I have received help only from Trashman, who has provided me with some superior quality ships and weapons.  You want to talk about hard work, try producing all that I have and only getting a polite nod or two from the HLP community as a reward.  Now I know that chapters 2&3 aren't on the site, but they're down for repairs that were pointed out to me by an HLP member that is oddly fanatical about my campaign.  They may not be perfect, but I'm doing my best.

The point is, the super stupid huge campaigns don't always deliver and in many cases have collapsed under their weight.  Look to the little guys who get the job done with the resources they have on hand and the hard work and dedication that some of the big boys seem to lack.  The meek shall inherit the earth
"The point of war is not to die for your country, the point is to make some other poor bastard die for his."

Into to the Depths of Hell Campaign Site
www.geocities.com/noiseball2000/itdoh.html

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Maybe. But only because I'm quietly fanatical about it.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story