Author Topic: "Coming in June 2001!!!"  (Read 11281 times)

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Offline BlackDove

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Quote
Originally posted by Prophet
It's about keeping the work in reasonable size so that it does not take 5 years to complete it.


Again, it's not your place to judge nor analyse that.

If any campaign needs your opinion, they'll promote you to staff member.

The topic is off limits to you.

 

Offline CP5670

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Exterior perspective. I start things out of interest, but usually the bulk of work ends up being done as I don't want to let any of the people either a) waiting or b) working with me down. That's why it took me so long to formally cancel Reci (even though I'd realised it was going nowhere a long time beforehand).


So you only find it fun at the beginning and then spend years on it just to not let down some people in an internet community? That makes no sense; you're implying that the project has become a chore rather than a pastime. I would have cancelled it the moment I got bored with it rather than letting it come to that.

Also, if you are that worried about getting people's hopes up, the best thing is to not hype the campaign so much in the first place. Some of these mega projects we have here tend to do that and they are the main culprits of this over-ambitious planning. Nobody had heard of my campaign at all until it was a bit under half finished.

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But ultimately the point is that, what 'we' do is as much for other peoples benefit as our own. And IMO it's unreasonable to ***** about how long that takes or otherwise, because it's not like we're getting anything tangible in return from the waiting people.


The fact that the finished products are released to the public is kind of a moot point (if you have completed a campaign, you might as well release it). I like to make missions mainly so that I can play them out myself, as everything is exactly the way I want it, which I won't find in any missions made by others. I really can't imagine how anyone could motivate themselves to make FS2 campaigns if the main purpose was to release them to the community. This community in particular is quite tiny compared to other games and you can't really expect more than 60 or 70 people at best to play your campaign.

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If people are so unhappy waiting 1 year or 2 or whatever on me and the people I'm working with trying to make something that's fun, and that's ****ing good, then I'm not sure why I bother. There's like some implicit assumption that when a campaign is delayed it's because the staff are ****ing up requirements; that it's better to release something you consider half-arsed and incomplete than have people waiting another 6 months or so. That, I guess, would be like professional development.


Well, BlueFlames is being harsh, but his main point still stands. I guess someone had to say it. You can make perfectly good, highly polished campaigns in a reasonable amount of time by simply not having super ambitious goals with the quantity of missions and extras like new ships. I'm not saying you are doing that, but we have several projects here that are. I sort of got it wrong myself and have learned my lesson, although I wasn't quite as bad as many other campaigns.

I honestly doubt these huge projects will ever reach completion; the staff will eventually just give up and move on to other things. I have been in this community for six years and have seen this happen to overly big campaigns far too many times. Even if they are completed, it won't be before much of their potential audience has left the community for other games.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2005, 04:42:44 pm by 296 »

 

Offline Janos

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Quote
Originally posted by BlackDove


Again, it's not your place to judge nor analyse that.

If any campaign needs your opinion, they'll promote you to staff member.

The topic is off limits to you.


Can those who are the main audience say something then?
lol wtf

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Quote
Originally posted by Janos


Can those who are the main audience say something then?


You can say something, but not criticize a campaign for taking its time when it comes to keeping up with the times and making the best possible story and presentation possible to keep the main audience happy.

Seriously, if BWO is anything like I know it will be, then we're all in for a helluva play. Same goes for ST:R. And Scroll. And TAP. And... well, you get the point. Give these people just a little more time--when they say "it's done", it's done. I don't think the BWO people are going to degrade themselves or give its fans some half-baked campaign since the 'fans' keep pressuring them to release it.
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
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Offline FireCrack

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From what i cna see, mods like BWO have as much content as the original FS2 and had to do a partial restart of development halfway through in order to make up for SCP features.


Rome wasn't built in a day.


Anywyas, on the voices thing, i for one would not want BWO to be released wihtout it, i wouldnt play it, voices are that important to me. That is why i still havent played derelict, but may soon...
actualy, mabye not.
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3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944 59230781640628620899862803482534211706...
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Offline Prophet

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Quote
Originally posted by BlackDove
Again, it's not your place to judge nor analyse that.
I most certainly am not judging nor am I analyzing.

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Originally posted by BlackDove
If any campaign needs your opinion, they'll promote you to staff member.

I have to part of some project in order to present my opinion?

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Originally posted by BlackDove
The topic is off limits to you.

And who are you to decide that?

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Originally posted by aldo_14
The trust the people making projects to judge what is and what is not 'complete'. That's all I ask.

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Originally posted by nuclear1
give its fans some half-baked campaign since the 'fans' keep pressuring them to release it.

Have I missed something? Who has pressured someone to release "half-baked campaign"?
I'm not saying anything. I did not say anything then and I'm not saying anything now. -Dukath
I am not breaking radio silence just cos' you lot got spooked by a dead flying ****ing cow. -Sergeant Harry Wells/Dog Soldiers


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Offline CP5670

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You can say something, but not criticize a campaign for taking its time when it comes to keeping up with the times and making the best possible story and presentation possible to keep the main audience happy.

Seriously, if BWO is anything like I know it will be, then we're all in for a helluva play. Same goes for ST:R. And Scroll. And TAP. And... well, you get the point. Give these people just a little more time--when they say "it's done", it's done. I don't think the BWO people are going to degrade themselves or give its fans some half-baked campaign since the 'fans' keep pressuring them to release it.


That's assuming we will still be around in this community when all of those are finished, which I doubt.

I have no idea where people are getting this idea that a campaign has to be gigantic or else it's "half baked" and not professional. There were actually quite a few good smallish campaigns for FS1 (maybe since in those days hardly anybody knew much about making pofs and mods in general), but I haven't seen many of those for FS2.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2005, 03:10:09 am by 296 »

 

Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
That's assuming we will still be around in this community when all of those are finished, which I doubt.


People have been predicting the death of the FS2 community for the last 3-4 years. Had we thought like that I doubt any of the hosted projects would even still be running now.
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Offline CP5670

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The predictions have been true to some extent, if you consider the number of people there used to be (in the VBB days, for example) compared to how many there are now. There are quite a few people registered here, but a lot of them are no longer that interested in FS2 and come here to talk about other things. The community won't die but it will get smaller. Anyway, my point is that investing years into a huge mega-project just for presenting it to an audience is silly when it's this small, especially as aldo's remarks imply that some designers are not actually having fun with their projects and are just working on them for the prospect of a public release.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2005, 04:09:39 am by 296 »

 

Offline karajorma

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Actually the predictions were a load of bollocks. The number of people active in the community and playing the game is pretty much roughly the same as what it was 3 years ago when the predictions were made.

You only need to look at the reg dates for this thread to see that there are lots of people here who registered after the community was supposed to be dying.

The SCP and TBP attracted quite a few new members. Sure there are less people than in the golden age but that happens to every single game. I don't see the numbers dwindling in the last couple of years. They've pretty much hit a stable plateau and may actually climb if TC's like Starfox and BSG bring us new members.

I get your point about not developing unless you're enjoying it (or at least are very close to release) but when people predict the death of the community I always call them on it cause I haven't seen signs of it happening yet.
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Offline Prophet

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Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Anyway, my point is that investing years into a huge mega-project just for presenting it to an audience is silly when it's this small, especially as aldo's remarks imply that some designers are not actually having fun with their projects and are just working on them for the prospect of a public release.

Not silly. Infact it's very commendable if you like the challenge and enjoy doing it. What is silly is that you prolonge the release because you wait for the briefing anis some guy promised to make two months ago. Or the release is delayed because of enermous hype about awesome new mods that you really don't enjoy doing anymore. But force yourself to work on because you advertized them so much...

I dont see this community dying anywhere in the near future. But the fact is that releasing stuff really breathes new life in it. Just releasing Derelict again with voices would make me equally happy as releasing BWO. Even if it doesn't have new cool eyecandy and tons of awesome new mods, but because the story is great and the missions are fun to play!

Ofcourse seeing those mods and all that stuff is neat. And ofcourse it is up to the project staff to decide what they will do. But its also up to them to decide what they will not do.
I'm not saying anything. I did not say anything then and I'm not saying anything now. -Dukath
I am not breaking radio silence just cos' you lot got spooked by a dead flying ****ing cow. -Sergeant Harry Wells/Dog Soldiers


Prophet is walking in the deep dark places of the earth...

 

Offline Getter Robo G

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(prophet): I mis-read your title... I thought it said June2005 so I thought it was going to be about a late release ;) ..


(to the complainers):

  So I get sucked into reading this enite thread and guess what? I say stop being a hater. Campaigns progress as they can based on skill, talent, and time available.

   Whiney people with no vision or appreciation of the work put into them IMHO have no credit to speak the garbage I've seen posted here.

The Ironic thing is I have practically no skills and my projects are now reaching the 2-3 year mark, yet I can understand both sides of the Issue (yay, about to celebrate my FOURTH birthday here!). I also get newbs from time to time in my thread asking "Is it done yet?" or "Why is it not done?". When asked if they woud like to help move any of the developments along usually I get the old, "I can't help, no skills" or people with the level of commitment your average streetwalker posesses (ie none).

There is nothing wrong with asking for a status update in a NICE way, but making yourself a Troll is rude, disrespectful, and really not needed in any community.

  I bet the majority of people here would agree that WE do what we do for OUR OWN enjoyment, and not for some community-wide praise or recognition.

If you don't have hordes of people knocking on your door to help your project then it's a good bet they are not intersted in the subject, and when it ever gets finished are probably NOT going to play it anyway! So catering to that audience is foolish in the firstplace.

BD may have gone to far that your opinion isn't wanted/needed, BUT seriously... He's part of BWO so your getting the info straight from the source. What the (blank) more do you want?

You either accept that info or you don't, but you sure as hell are not gonna debate it. That has nothing to do with opinion, that's called facts.

How you feel about BWO is your business, but debating one person's feelings of the inner workings or management of something they are not even a part of with a member of that team who's telling you like it is, is both fruitless and arrogant.

and THAT is an opinion (mine)

Star Dragon
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"I am the one and ONLY Star Dragon..."
Proof for the noobs:  Member Search

[I'm Just an idea guy, NOT: a modeler, texturer, or coder... Word of advice, "Watch out for the ducks!"]

Robotech II - Continuing...
FS2 Trek - Snails move faster than me...
Star Blazers: Journey to Iscandar...
FS GUNDAM - The Myth lives on... :)

 

Offline Prophet

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@ Getter Robo G

This isn't about BWO but about large projects in general. Thought I mentioned BWO in my last post, it was meant to be as an example toghether with Derelict. I should have chosen some other campaign than that. Too late now.
I'm not saying anything. I did not say anything then and I'm not saying anything now. -Dukath
I am not breaking radio silence just cos' you lot got spooked by a dead flying ****ing cow. -Sergeant Harry Wells/Dog Soldiers


Prophet is walking in the deep dark places of the earth...

 

Offline Getter Robo G

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My last coment on this, but if you noticed (Prophet) I seperated who I was talking to/about. If you lumped yourself in that group, that's a personal choice.

   It wasn't meant to target any specific individual, though there is one here who's only been here a year longer than me that DOES come to mind and should know better.
"Don't think of it as being out-numbered, think of it as having a WIDE target selection!"

"I am the one and ONLY Star Dragon..."
Proof for the noobs:  Member Search

[I'm Just an idea guy, NOT: a modeler, texturer, or coder... Word of advice, "Watch out for the ducks!"]

Robotech II - Continuing...
FS2 Trek - Snails move faster than me...
Star Blazers: Journey to Iscandar...
FS GUNDAM - The Myth lives on... :)

 

Offline Roanoke

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Quote
Originally posted by Getter Robo G

The Ironic thing is I have practically no skills and my projects are now reaching the 2-3 year mark, yet I can understand both sides of the Issue (yay, about to celebrate my FOURTH birthday here!). I also get newbs from time to time in my thread asking "Is it done yet?" or "Why is it not done?". When asked if they woud like to help move any of the developments along usually I get the old, "I can't help, no skills" or people with the level of commitment your average streetwalker posesses (ie none).


Dude, you're reg. date is like, a year ago!!! What yer lying for ??!!

:p

I think some of you guys forget how hard it is to learn decent modding skills. Hell, I've been here for 2/3 years, having started not knowing the difference between a pof. or a pcx; and I still struggle to make the sort of stuff people like Aldo were making when he was still fairly new.

And that doesn't even touch on coding, fredding or general art.

 

Offline Getter Robo G

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You forgot WHO I am (Star Dragon) first registered Feb/March 2002!
(why do you think I keep practically the same sig and added the line "I am the one and ONLY Star Dragon)

Don't believe me do a member search for my info and ask the mods...
(nm in case you too lazy to look):

Old info
http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=622

current
http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=2035


so do a little math and you'll figure out I've been here a little over 3 1/2 years and have 2216 posts not including this one ;)

I take accusations of LYING or resource hijacking VERY seriously so just don't go there... I had a problem on my end and they couldn't figure it out so I chalked it up to being hacked and re-registered under the Japanese name for Star Dragon (Getter Robo G). I lost my old post count and registration date... And that is your HLP history lesson for the day.

Now back to our sponsors...
« Last Edit: August 27, 2005, 11:07:52 am by 2035 »
"Don't think of it as being out-numbered, think of it as having a WIDE target selection!"

"I am the one and ONLY Star Dragon..."
Proof for the noobs:  Member Search

[I'm Just an idea guy, NOT: a modeler, texturer, or coder... Word of advice, "Watch out for the ducks!"]

Robotech II - Continuing...
FS2 Trek - Snails move faster than me...
Star Blazers: Journey to Iscandar...
FS GUNDAM - The Myth lives on... :)

 

Offline Kie99

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Quote
Originally posted by Roanoke
Hell, I've been here for 2/3 years, having started not knowing the difference between a pof. or a pcx




Dude, you're reg. date is like, a year ago!!! What yer lying for ??!!

:p


Yes, I know Roanoke used to be Mag 1, I'm just pointing out the irony of what he said
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Offline CP5670

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Actually the predictions were a load of bollocks. The number of people active in the community and playing the game is pretty much roughly the same as what it was 3 years ago when the predictions were made.

You only need to look at the reg dates for this thread to see that there are lots of people here who registered after the community was supposed to be dying.

The SCP and TBP attracted quite a few new members. Sure there are less people than in the golden age but that happens to every single game. I don't see the numbers dwindling in the last couple of years. They've pretty much hit a stable plateau and may actually climb if TC's like Starfox and BSG bring us new members.

I get your point about not developing unless you're enjoying it (or at least are very close to release) but when people predict the death of the community I always call them on it cause I haven't seen signs of it happening yet.


Actually in those days (or a bit longer ago, maybe 4 years) there were almost two distinct FS communities of rougly equal size, the multiplayer group, some of who used to post in the squadwar forum, and everyone else who posted on all the other forums. It's certainly not that anywhere near that size anymore. There are new members registering but let's face it, only a small number of those are here to stay for a long time, just like with any other forum.

I think we will probably have a hardcore group of 60 or so people who are actually interested in FS here at all times (not necessarily all the same people as there are now), which is more than enough for the community to stay alive, but is not much of an audience for gaining fame, which is the only other reason I can think of for making these campaigns if it has ceased to be fun.

Anyway, I've made my point. I'm really looking forward to playing these big campaigns if and when they do come out.

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Not silly. Infact it's very commendable if you like the challenge and enjoy doing it. What is silly is that you prolonge the release because you wait for the briefing anis some guy promised to make two months ago. Or the release is delayed because of enermous hype about awesome new mods that you really don't enjoy doing anymore. But force yourself to work on because you advertized them so much...


okay...that's essentially what I have been saying. :wtf: :D

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I bet the majority of people here would agree that WE do what we do for OUR OWN enjoyment, and not for some community-wide praise or recognition.


Yes, I think most of the designers are like that. I certainly had fun with my attempt, although the fun factor did go down for me towards the end when the thing was going on for years. I'm mainly responding to aldo's stuff about how the campaign designers are doing everyone else a service and all that, as that isn't a sensible mindset to have when the community is so small.

Quote
You forgot WHO I am (Star Dragon) first registered Feb/March 2002!
(why do you think I keep practically the same sig and added the line "I am the one and ONLY Star Dragon)


Actually I knew a Star Dragon on PXO many years ago. A bit eccentric but a nice guy, a retired army veteran or something. So there is at least one more SD out there. :D
« Last Edit: August 27, 2005, 12:12:06 pm by 296 »

 

Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Prophet

Have I missed something? Who has pressured someone to release "half-baked campaign"?


If you're criticising, say, MT or BWO for taking their time deciding on what is the appropriate level and quality of content, that's exactly what you're doing.

Quote
Originally posted by Roanoke
I think some of you guys forget how hard it is to learn decent modding skills. Hell, I've been here for 2/3 years, having started not knowing the difference between a pof. or a pcx; and I still struggle to make the sort of stuff people like Aldo were making when he was still fairly new.

And that doesn't even touch on coding, fredding or general art.


I dunno; you obviously don't remember the first thing I posted here :D

Anything is hard, really, if you want to be good.  And the better is is, usually the more time it'll take.

Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Yes, I think most of the designers are like that. I certainly had fun with my attempt, although the fun factor did go down for me towards the end when the thing was going on for years. I'm mainly responding to aldo's stuff about how the campaign designers are doing everyone else a service and all that, as that isn't a sensible mindset to have when the community is so small.


Hey, I'm not saying people should regard mod tems as mother teresa or even be glad they decide to start stuff, just recognise that part of the whole attraction of this is giving other people soemthing to play with, and asking that people have a bit of patience & trust in our judgement, because even if we **** up or miss planned dates, or whatever, it's not costing the ordinary forumite anything.

 

Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Actually in those days (or a bit longer ago, maybe 4 years) there were almost two distinct FS communities of rougly equal size, the multiplayer group, some of who used to post in the squadwar forum, and everyone else who posted on all the other forums. It's certainly not that anywhere near that size anymore. There are new members registering but let's face it, only a small number of those are here to stay for a long time, just like with any other forum.


In the golden age there were more people obviously but since the VBB closed I haven't really seen any huge decline in the number of people here.

Besides like I said before campaigns like BSG and TBP can bring us a lot of new blood.
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