[Shrike]

As we all know, (I assume you know) there are inherent limitations to storytelling in a game media, be it RPG, FPS or Sim.  For this discussion, consider primarily sim games, although feel free to wander into other styles if desired.

Point 1) What do you think makes a good story?  Give us some examples, be it from a game or from something you made up.
Point 2) Are there any truly original stories left untold?  Or is everything just a permutation of the familiar?
Point 3) What do you think is the best way to tell the story in the game media?
Point 4) Some things are pathetic fallacy and/or cliche, are they necessary or can they be eliminated/replaced?
Point 5) Should multiplayer action be sacrificed on the altar of good storytelling, or vice versa?  Simple deathmatches get boring after a while.

Alright, let loose the hounds of writing.  Go to it people, you have your topic!

[icespeed]

1)it really depends on tastes, but lots and lots of action is good. it should make sense. and comedy never goes amiss.
2)there are no more original stories, but that doesn't matter because there are infinite variations.
3)? something like a mystery novel, maybe? you get background briefing, then clues dropped through the whole thing and it comes together at the end.
4)fallacies and cliches are classic when used correctly. overuse results in boring storylines that can be predicted.
5)again, this depends on what sort of game you're playing.
Anyway, that's my opinion, for what it's worth.

[Eishtmo]

There are still original stories out there, there have to be.  The problem is finding them.  It's part of the reason most fiction now centers on character rather than story.  It may take time, but new stories will come.  Will they be any good as games?  I doubt it.

Games are a hard medium with which to tell a story.  Not only do you have to tell the story, but you have to be prepared for the player to actually effect it.  This is why most games have simple "good vs evil" storyline.  Its not that games can't have more complex stories (I've seen a couple), but its just so much harder to do it.  

It also depends on the game.  Most video games are of the instent gradification type.  Pick up the stick, blow something up.  Simple, easy, and what most people want.  Why do you think Quake and its like are so popular?  RPG's and Adventure genres are the only ones that can get around this problem, at the expense of audience.  And, in a world where money rules, they don't get out much.  And the ones that do are usually poorly made.  Story, in a video game, is usually just the background for the action, and almost never the reason to have the game.  There are exceptions (Planescape: Torment and The Longest Journey, both I highly recommend), but they are exceptions, not rules.

The best stories in games, I feel, leave you with unanswered questions, or better yet, make you ask new questions.  The whole story is never revealed to the player, but hints at what it might be are.  Clues, like a mystery novel, are scattered around, but unlike a mystery novel, you don't find out whodunit on the last page.  Of course, when I create a story, I come up with the background, sometimes even the reasons why, but I never tell the reader.  It's more fun that way, for the both of us.

But a game has to make the player feel like part of the story, and that's really hard to do through a handful of cutscenes between levels.  And that's usually all you have, a damn shame really.  For a great story in a game, the player should be begging for the thing not to end even when it does, should actually cry at the horror of it all, or even at the joy of it all.  It's hard to do, I know I haven't done it, on paper or otherwise, but when it's done, oh God!  It's wonderful.

I think that you need to work on a story for it to be great.  Not a few months in between testing game mechanics, but huge periods of working just on the story, tweaking ever line and action.  Creating a great story needs lots of work, and a dash of talent, and even then you're not necessarily going to succeed.  Trying, though, is better than doing nothing.  Yoda didn't know jack.

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I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.

[Nico]

And for taht you earned a new title it seems  
I'm not sure about the "don't tell the reader/player/whatever everything" at the end. Sometimes it can fit with the plot, sometimes it won't, and will left the -insert right term here- frustrated, which is not always a good thing either.
Don't tell me you don't want to know about Capella and that you don't curse Interplay coz you'll never know what was capella about (just because Volition choosed not to tell you what would happen, well, you'll never know, and to be honest, left like that, the thing makes quite no sense)

[Shrike]

Actually, I have that to him as soon as I saw he reg'ed.

[Eishtmo]

I hadn't noticed 'till now.  Shows how much I care for titles in the first place, doesn't it?

I understand the point of wanting to know some answers, and like you said, if it can be worked in, maybe it should be.  But when it comes to Freespace, they were setting up for an expansion pack and a sequel that likely would have answered the Capella question.  Things just didn't work out that way.

But while leaving out that part did create a bit of frustration, it also lead to lots of really creative theories, from the theories of that thread (I still refuse to say its name) to the Capella Barbeque theory, and there are hundreds between the two.  It helped spark imagination, and that is why I don't like giving away the whole story.

The real problem of giving that kind of information away is that you really, really have to do it well or else it sounds like a big long exposition that eventually turns the audiance into sleeping jelly.  It was so frustrating to me that near the end of Metal Gear Solid, Liquid basically gave the whole mess away.  Of course, he was wrong, but it took all the mystery out of it.  I think its the tendency of game developers to view the player as an idiot, and while that is often true, its not always true.  Give the player/reader some credit, they can, and often do, think, and dream, and imagine, even if TV and the media have striped most of that away.

Most stories in games leave very little to the imagination.  Yes, it gives it a more coehesive feel, and you do get all the answers, but did you really benefit from it?  Probably not.  You didn't learn anything truly profound, even if you think you did.  To truly learn something deep is to question it and find your own answers.  Sometimes you'll surprise yourself, or even scare yourself.  About a week ago, simply on a whim, I went to a DBZ site (I didn't bookmark it BTW) and by the time I went to bed, maybe 30 minutes later, I decided that SSJ forms are actually a fight-or-flight response.  Yes, it scares the bejesus out of me too.  But in a creepy way, I actually had a lot of fun doing it.  I do the same thing with Freespace, the Longest Journey, just about any story I've ever read, and so much more.  I have a lot more fun trying to find the possiblites instead of it just being presented to me.  And so when I say "It's more fun that way, for the both of us," I mean it.  I have a ball creating the lines that make people wonder at the truth.  And its even more fun to follow those lines myself and create new possiblites.

And yes, I do want to know about Capella, but I'll stick with the Capella Barbeque theory for now.  It's the best one yet.

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I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.

[Nico]

And what's for dinner?  

[Eishtmo]

Meats and veggies, my boy.  Flame kissed by a supernova.  With a side of Shivan beer and Terran beer nuts (very rare).  Then we'll party until we run out of beer and have to wipe out a civilization for more!

Come on people, don't make me look like the only one speaking on the topic around here (venom excluded).

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I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.

[Shrike]

Yum, supernova grilled!

Anyhow, back to the topic.

One thing that bugs me about most games is that they are too black and white.  In the spacesim genre Starlancer is a perfect example.  The evil space commies are out to take over the solar system, kill your friends, rape your girlfriend and eat your baby sister.  Like, hello.... these are real people as well.  They deserve treatment as such.  Personally, I like my sides grey and blurring at the edges, and the more the better.  Obviously, this presents some problems right off the bat.

Nations, cultures, technology, everything.... they needs to be fleshed out.  That was one weakness of the Freespace saga, there was too little detail available on the GTVA, on the ships they used, on the Shivans, on Terran and Vasudan culture, (there was more about the 'Zogs than the Terrans!) etc.  It can be done, browse through the manual for Homeworld and Cataclysm.  Perhaps not a wealth of background information, but certainly more than most games.  Perhaps I'm being too harsh on the gaming industry, after all, from my experiences storyline and such tend to take a backseat to just getting the damn thing running properly.

There is also the problem of how to link something at the 'personal' level if you will, as in stuff that would really draw the player into the universe, and the 'epic' level, where the space opera occurs.  Having the player caught up in a world gone mad makes for great excitement, the stuff action movies are made of.... but action movies are notorious for less than stunning plots and stories.

Leaving unanswered questions can be difficult you know.  In my opinion, what you'll be leaving open has to be planned out, simply leaving stuff hanging doesn't cut it.  And not having enough tied up ends is almost as bad, that simply feels unfinished.  It's definately something to think about.

[Setekh]

Given a plausible and reasonably exciting history, no imaginary faction or nation needs much more fleshing out. So I see giving things in games histories the highest priority. Give things history, and everything else falls into place.

[Nico]

 

Originally posted by Setekh:
Given a plausible and reasonably exciting history, no imaginary faction or nation needs much more fleshing out. So I see giving things in games histories the highest priority. Give things history, and everything else falls into place.

Dark Project... "sob, tears, filling my eyes"
everything was grey in DP, Garret,the hammerites,... Great background (the plot itself was more conventional)...

[Ace]

That is true Setekh, but culture *is* history.

Shrike, it's true that FS hasn't fleshed much out on Vasudan culture, and that Terran culture is clearly on edge due to what is mentioned historically from the end of the Great War. (the GTVA's forming must have been a "fun" time)

However take for instance Homeworld where the massive plot on the Kiith is thrown out immediately due to the plotline.

Cataclysm however did expand on the Kiith plot somewhat, and Homeworld 2 I am quite certain makes use of it fully.

On game villains, hell all villains in current pop culture, two words:
They suck

Honestly, as pointed out with Starlancer the "evil space commies out to rape my goat" have no depth no motives or plot.

Erin Roberts: "They want to prove the power of their economically depressed nations."

First off, if they are that bad off they can't field a space force of any nature and without a war ongoing the "allies" have no need for warships.

Hopping around a bit I agree with Venom, Thief was spectacular in plotline. My only issue with the game was quite a bit of tomb raiding but even that to me seemed fine since the atmosphere was well done.

Anyhow back again to another part of the thread:
Personal level is often ruined due to poor planning and trying to fit a face onto you. (Wing Commander, and despite what IceFire has said to me BWO) Even games like RedFaction don't need the main character to have a face from what I have seen so far. (though Parker may work out as a character, I know that Gordon Freeman didn't truly need a name, and STV: Elite Force worked with Alex or Alexandria Munroe)

FreeSpace 2 tried a good first step with bringing the scale down, working out squadrons and interesting characters around you, while keeping yourself vague leads to excellent immersion.

That or the good old "discover yourself" such as Planescape: Torment works.

The best comprimise is that you yourself are faceless, have a tight-knit group, and your actions then determine the lines of "discovering yourself." (say you're in some sort of car race and just win, folks mention that "wow that was just like what we did when we were kids" and the plot expands on such a thing)

Space opera works well, but so many holes exist in the common opera.

Even in Babylon 5, what are the actions of the ISA and such against something of the nature of Asimov's psychohistory?

Why is the culture so similar to ours? (no matter what, any future projection seems similar to modern day perceptions or is altered to fit) Is it technological paranoia or cultural anachronisms?

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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
 http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/

[Eishtmo]

I don't think the character has to be faceless for the player to relate.  A poorly planned intergration is bad, true, but sometimes it works and creates a memorable experiance.  It can create a character whose name and face are as memorable as anything in the world.  Gordon Freeman, for example, was only a name and face in a game that was all about action, yet we remember him.  We became him, in a way.  When you heard that the military was abandoning Gordon Freeman to his fate, you panicked.  Of course, you were Gordon, so of course you panicked.  He wasn't a nameless, faceless person, yet he was you.  

Now take just about anyother game you've ever played where the character had a name and face, and that's it, no real history or anything.  I bet you didn't relate as much to that character as you did to Gordon.  The difference is that the game managed to convince you that you Gordon Freeman, and you believed it.  That created a level of immersion that few games have ever created, and something all games should strive for.  But there's never enough time or money for it (Quarter to Three has a link on how much developers actually make).

However, you can make games where the playable character is a very vivid person.  I'm sorry I keep mentioning it, but The Longest Journey did this so perfectly, I knew the main character almost as well as I know myself.  Hell, I was predicting her responses by the second disk!  You can give the main charcater a name, a face, a history, a personality and not alienate the player.  It takes work, of course, but it can be done.

When it comes to cultures, that is just as important.  While I say "don't give it all away," there are common knowledge things you kind of have to give out or else the rest of it makes no sense.  So while in Homeworld they didn't get into the political differences, they were there in case they were referenced later (I never finished Homeworld, did they make reference to it later in the game?).

But for Freespace, you do lose something.  I want to know so much about the Vasudan culture it drives me crazy.  But, I don't want to know jack about the Shivans.  You can spoil a group by giving away too much, sometimes anything.  Remember the Borg?  Remember how cool they were?  Now think of the Borg after Voyager?  I'll give you a moment to get over the depression.  It all comes down to balance with a culture's history and beliefs.  Give away enough to draw the player, but not so much that you drive them away, or utterly depress them.

For future cultures, though, the reason they seem so similar to ours is because A)the designers don't know what a future culture would be like and B)we're more comfortable in our own world.  Being comfortable, we're more drawn into the game world, which is the most important thing a game can do.

Good and evil, to me, are the same thing.  It all makes sense from a certian point of view.  It should always be shown that being good and evil are relative.

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I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.

[Ace]

Your point about Freeman is well made  

In Homeworld, no further mention of the Kiith is within the game; no renegades aboard, no belief systems shaking, nothing. Simply battling for your homeworld.

Actually the final battle has an oddly done sequence where the Emporer sends some message to *first name of fleet command chick* Sjet which puts her into critical status.

Nothing is mentioned on how the Emporer did this, or on his clones which he used to cut off heirs, etc. etc.

Now it was made clear in the plot that the downfall of the Emporer was his attempt to make the destruction of the Kushan the glorious defeat of an age-old foe.

However much of the end sequences seemed to not have been fully developed, or time restraints did not allow for everything they had written.

Anyhow, enough of Homeworld.

It's true that good and evil should be shown as what they truly are, points of view and arbitrary labels created. (well all of existance as we perceive it is masked with fake labels we make, but still...   )

In tBE the actual "villain" is quite right in his own mind, not power hungry but trying to set things for the best survival possible for future generations.

In his mind, the Vasudans and would-be GTVA were forfeit since the end of the Great War, he knew survival was a fluke.

Even in FS, the Shivans have a greater motive, they seem like "the preservers" at the end of FS1, then FS2 shows the Capella incident.

Many people have wild theories on Capella, but the few comments Volition has made on the Shivans and on "FS3" do show that it is all connected to something more sinister.

Changing a quote of Lt. Alex McCarthy "Don't you know what happened at Capella? The Shivans are the least of our worries!"

Anyhow, this just proves that even "mysterious elemental force#5" needs to be not truly good, or evil.

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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
 http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/

[Nico]

 

Originally posted by Ace:
Changing a quote of Lt. Alex McCarthy "Don't you know what happened at Capella? The Shivans are the least of our worries!"

Our first worry is that we won't know about Capella (hehe nice quote modification IMO  )