[Mongoose]

Originally posted by karajorma
Hurricane Andrew was a category 5 storm. Katrina was Cat 4 when it made landfall. The reason why Katrina has cause more damaged is pretty simple. The poor state of the levees. Don't ever make the assumption that Katrina was the worst hurricane to hit America in recent times.

The devestation is greater only because of the dreadful mismanagement that allowed the levees to fail.

I'm perfectly aware that Andrew had a higher ranking than Katrina at the time of its landfall (even though, before it hit land, Katrina was actually the more powerful storm).  I was merely responding to Bobboau's complaint that federal aid took longer to reach the area than it had in other hurricanes in the past.  In my opinion, the very fact that the devastation that Katrina caused is the worst by any hurricane on record, regardless of Katrina's relative strength to other hurricanes, would imply that aid would take longer to reach those who need it. That's all I'm saying.  I also wouldn't qualify the state of the levees as "poor;" it isn't as though they were dilapidated and crumbling before the storm hit.  In fact, they had been upgraded in the past several years to deal with a Cat. 3 storm surge.  I don't see any gross mismanagement there.  Yes, there is the issue of the budget cut, but budget items get cut by presidents every single day, many of which would be useful and warranted.  It's not as though Bush was sitting at his desk four years ago and saying, "I know there'll be a Cat. 5 storm in the next few years, but hell with it...I want more guns."  There was always that possibility, but as I said, it had never happened.  It's only hindsight that allows us to criticize decisions made four years ago.

[Bobboau]

ok, two days after tsunami, people were getting food and water dropped to them, the tsunami came with absolutely no warning mostly in an extreemly poor country, and yet air dropps were mobalised in nearly 1/3rd the time it took here, when we had a three day _at least_ warning. the levies broke due to poor local management, but the feds fuct up the resque opperation.
the louisiana state and NO city government do not answer to me, but the feds do, and they are responcable for insureing the safty of all Americans, these same people are the ones who would be helping me if Scott AFB got nuked, do you see why I might focus on them a little more?

[karajorma]

It's not hindsight. There were plenty of people screaming at him to do something at it before the hurricane but he ignored them. Will you say the same thing when his policy on global warming is proved to be equally short sighted and stupid? Cause you may have noticed that I'm not one of those people who says that cause something only happens every 100 years we should take the risk that it won't happen tomorrow.

The government were warned several times that the levees wouldn't stand up to a cat 4 or cat 5 hurricane and deliberately choose to do nothing about it even though hurricanes striking the new Orleans area is not an unknown occurance. I guarentee you that if I'd heard about this before hand I'd have been complaining about the government's stupidity in ignoring the danger.
 Especially given the relatively minor cost compared with what will have to be paid now.

As for the comment about the levees being poor. I think that's a prefectly good description of a device that is designed to withstand a category 3 hurricane in a place where category 4 and 5 hurricanes can hit. And don't get me started on what I've heard the Dutch say about the quality of those defenses.

[aldo_14]

Ach, horrible stuff.  I've been watching it on and off on Sky News / BBC World for the last few days, seems like a complete ****up of planning.  Regardless of the shabbiness of having levvys that are too weak, how on earth did it take that long to get basic supplies?  Even though any country would have difficulties with that magnitude of disaster (an entire city and beyond being inundated), the apparent lack of any cohesive disaster plan is surely unforgiveable - especially when we've seen exactly this sort of scale of disaster just 9 months ago, and in the worlds most powerful nation. (and when exactly this sort of devestation had been predicted by the New Orleans weather centre)

If it's true that money was diverted from the sea defense budget for 'homeland security', that just raises further questions.  Not to mention my personal astonishment at how a city can so quickly break down into a virtual warzone, with armed gangs roaming the streets.... the overnight collapse of society that seems to have occurred is beyond anything I've ever conceived of or expected in this type of disaster.

[TrashMan]

Like I said before - making decisions is not easy..

you allways have poeple/groups/project screaming for money and ALL of htem will give you GOOD reasons to give it to them. Some cuts had to be made and I can't blaim bush for hte levie thing (allthough I hate the guy becoause of hte Kyoto thing - in a way it was his fault...and from the rest of america that uses 50% more resources per person than any other nation).

the response was slow nad it does appearto be due to poor planning but 3 (THREE) states were hit, not just New Orleans..not to mention the problem of actually getting there with most of hte roads under water.
I am surprised that choppers took so long to get there, but hey, it's a big country...

[Knight Templar]

Katrina was God's revenge for Mardi Gras, plain and simple. Just like ****ing Sodom and Gamorra.

[Styxx]

Originally posted by Knight Templar
Katrina was God's revenge for Mardi Gras, plain and simple. Just like ****ing Sodom and Gamorra.

Like politicians here in Brazil, then.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by TrashMan
Like I said before - making decisions is not easy..

you allways have poeple/groups/project screaming for money and ALL of htem will give you GOOD reasons to give it to them. Some cuts had to be made and I can't blaim bush for hte levie thing (allthough I hate the guy becoause of hte Kyoto thing - in a way it was his fault...and from the rest of america that uses 50% more resources per person than any other nation).

the response was slow nad it does appearto be due to poor planning but 3 (THREE) states were hit, not just New Orleans..not to mention the problem of actually getting there with most of hte roads under water.
I am surprised that choppers took so long to get there, but hey, it's a big country...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4216508.stm

[q]When Hurricane Camille, a rare top Category Five storm, hit Mississippi in 1969, just missing New Orleans, the levees around the city were strengthened - but only enough to protect against a Category Three hurricane.

The gamble was taken that another Category Five would not threaten New Orleans anytime soon. This attitude prevailed among successive administrations.

Lt General Carl Strock, the Army Corps of Engineers commander, admitted that there was a collective mindset - that New Orleans would not be hit. Washington rolled the dice, he said.

After flooding in 1995, the existing system was improved. However, the sums were relatively small. About $500m was spent over the next 10 years.

From 2003 onwards, the Bush administration cut funds amid charges from the Army Corps of Engineers that the money was transferred to Iraq instead. The latest annual budget was cut from $36.5m to $10.4m.

A study to examine defences against a category Four or Five storm was proposed, at a cost of $4m. The Times-Picayune quoted the Army Corps of Engineers project manager Al Naomi as saying: "The Iraq war forced the Bush administration to order the New Orleans district office not to begin any new studies."

But in any event, there was no plan for a major strengthening. This would have taken billions of dollars and many years.

And an Army Corps of Engineers spokeswoman, Connie Gillette, said there had never been any plans or funds to improve those floodwalls which had failed. [/q]

[IPAndrews]

This just in. There will be a full inquiry into what went wrong with the new Orleans evacuation and subsequent relief operation. the inquiry will be lead by... wait for it... Tell you what. Just click the link.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4220246.stm

[aldo_14]

I'm going to make my fortune - I'm going to sell whitewash in Washington.

[Stealth]

and he never stopped to think that perhaps he was to blame?

[Stealth]

Originally posted by Jeryko


9/11 was handeled on a national level because it was a terrorist act.  Terrorism is a nation wide concern.

and extreme natural disasters aren't?  Why is everyone blaming a large part on Bush?  Why did the federal government declare martial law?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Stealth


and extreme natural disasters aren't?  Why is everyone blaming a large part on Bush?  Why did the federal government declare martial law?

Because Bush is the ultimate figurehead of power; his name is shorthand for the government and the morass of faceless, nameless beauraucrats that form it.

Ultimately, there will be many people to blame.  But those people will be the decision makers, and that surely must include the President; it would appear FEMA botched the job up horribly, and questions should be asked about why.  If that involves it's movement to be part of the gesta... Homeland Security, or the key appointments made, then that would involve the Presidents office.  Likewise if budgets were cut on flood defence, or studies cancelled, and what that excess money was used for.

It is, after all, the Presidents ultimate duty to take responsibility.

[vyper]

Youi know, it's only now I think about it I realise why FEMA was integrated. The legal powers FEMA have to even over-rule the federal government would extend Homeland Security powers to a frightening level.

[redmenace]

Originally posted by Stealth
and he never stopped to think that perhaps he was to blame?

You might think for a second that the mayor would think for a second that he too was to blame before make some fake emotional appeal.

[karajorma]

Regardless of that the simple fact is that a review into what went wrong should not be conducted by a man who could be responsible for it all going wrong.

Oh and while I'm at it I've yet to hear anyone give a single credible answer to what the mayor of NO could have done to prevent the tragedy.

[Mongoose]

Originally posted by karajorma
Oh and while I'm at it I've yet to hear anyone give a single credible answer to what the mayor of NO could have done to prevent the tragedy.

Have you seen pictures of all of those school buses sitting flooded in a parking lot?  Why didn't the mayor order then to get as many refugeess as possible as far from the city as they could?  You can't tell me that's FEMA's fault.  Also, after they decided to use the Superdome and the convention center as shelters, why didn't local officials make them more well-equipped to deal with large numbers of people?  They had a few days' warning, which is more than enough time to make better preparations than were evident in the stories of those forced to live in the shelters.  I've said it before, and I've said it again:  seeing what condition the city and surrounding region of the country was in after the storm, and seeing as how the devastation to New Orleans only became apparent a day or two later when the levees burst (some news types were still saying that the city had "dodged a bullet" the day after the storm), and seeing as how federal forces were already being marshalled before the storm hit, I just don't see how FEMA can be said to bear the brunt of responsibility for this catastrophe.  I'm not sticking my head in the sand, and I'm not trying to defend the federal government; that's just my rational conclusion.  If anything, I think we should be taking a good, hard look at what Mayor Nagin and the governor of Louisiana could have done better to help the people in their own backyards.  It's not like they had to ship supplies and equipment thousands of miles; anything they could have used, like those school buses, was right at their fingertips.  Why weren't they utilized properly?

Also, on a related note, something struck me as very odd about the video posted earler regarding the city official's mother who died as a result of being trapped in her nursing home.  As tragic as her death was, I see absolutely no reason why it should not have been prevented.  According to the interviewee's statements, her son called her three or four days in a row, saying that help was on the way.  Why the hell didn't he go and get her himself?  Are you telling me that, over the course of a few days, he couldn't manage to find a boat and get over there to get her to somewhere safer, or at least send someone over to get her?  If that was your own mother, wouldn't you have moved her to higher ground well before the storm hit, or at least gotten to her as soon as possible, even if it meant swimming half the way?

[IPAndrews]

Originally posted by Stealth
Why is everyone blaming a large part on Bush?

Because he had the power to prepare the country for eventualities such as this, and didn't? Because he had the power to kick everyone's asses into motion as soon as it happened, and didn't? Because he should have got on the first plane back from his holiday, and didn't?

[Mefustae]

Originally posted by Mongoose
I just don't see how FEMA can be said to bear the brunt of responsibility for this catastrophe.

I sure as hell do, and you must be sticking your head in the sand if you don't. FEMA was in there rather quickly, i'll give you that, but it was so chaotic that they did more harm than good. Four days in and they still hadn't gathered a Command and Control Centre, and as a result, different rescue efforts began working against each other. I've both seen and read reports of trucks loaded with Food, Water and Medical Supplies being turned away from NO in the chaos, all erupting for FEMA's - let's face it - completely inept handling of the situation...

Originally posted by Mongoose
According to the interviewee's statements, her son called her three or four days in a row, saying that help was on the way.  Why the hell didn't he go and get her himself?  Are you telling me that, over the course of a few days, he couldn't manage to find a boat and get over there to get her to somewhere safer, or at least send someone over to get her?  

Yeah, I've seen that report a few times too, tragic really, but I really don't think you've grasped the gravity of the situation in NO at the time...You've stated in previous posts about the abject devestation of the area, but now you argue that anyone could simply get a boat, sail through the clean, clear flood waters, find, and subsequently rescue that poor old Woman. A few things wrong with your theory;
A) Boats were possibly hard to come by, I can't count the times i've seen people using doors to traverse the flood waters...
B) There was an obvious manpower shortage in NO. Rescue efforts were going on around the clock (although it took a while to wind up), yet you seem to think that there were many people free to hop on a boat, sail away, and save a single woman...not to mention the fact that the man was a city official, and likely had a freaking job to do!
C) Perhaps the main point is that all the information you have to go on about this particular case came from a sobbing friend of the Official in question. So, your basing your criticism of this knowing nothing about it, which - no offense intended - is just plain silly. For all we know, his Mother might have been in the most flooded area of NO, inaccessible to all but Aircraft, we just don't know, so i'd thank you not to insult a man who just lost his own damn Mother in damn near nightmarish circumstances...


...And as for the Investigation of the shoddy response being headed by Bush, well, it makes perfect sense. The main idea of these investigations, inquiries, or whatever, is to make it look like they're doing something, which they can also point to at any given time and say; 'We're having an investigation! Give it time! All answers will be given soon!

Before you know it, it's several years and several million dollars later, the results are finished, and no interest in it is apparent (yes, it is a major generalisation, but there isn't exactly going to be fanfare when the findings are finished), meaning that the findings can never be released without a ruckass...welcome to Western Politics...

[IPAndrews]

Maybe your country should have been "prepared" then Mefustae? Just a thought. Crazy I know.