[achtung]

I personally think the looting ordeal is fine, as long as their just taking foodstuffs and water that they need to survive.  But this stupid ****e of people stealing pants and other useless goods is just ****ing ignorance.

Originally posted by Bobboau
for those of you saying this chaos is because there americans (nice sentement by the way) keep in mind that what you have here is the destilled, purest, most refined stupid that this city had to offer.

Hicks?

Wait no I'm one of those, must be some higher level of stupidity

[Bobboau]

well, the stuff will probly get ruined before anything gets fixed, I realy doubt any of the stuff getting looted would ever be recoverable, so who cares? honestly, if I was there, I'm telling you, I would be looting, my first priority would be to get food water, then a gun (probly make sure I had one before the storm hit actualy), then some place dry(that was likely to stay that way), then hit the local best buy.

[Bobboau]

Swantz, I'm refering mostly to the fact that they stayed in the city with the storm comeing, ok, granted, it was also the poor, but still, I would have walked if I had to.

[vyper]

1 - This should not have happened.
2 - The US Military can deploy almost anywhere in the world within 48 hours. Why can't they deploy in massive numbers in their own country?
3 - Could it be something to do with the huge budget spend on Iraq?

[MatthewPapa]

Originally posted by deep_eyes
for the record the louisnana governor has ASKED more times than i can remember for military support (which wont be given more than what we all have heared, which is a cple thousand to 10thousand at most), equipment such as heavy movers (only the national gaurd is doing it right now and they said they NEED MORE), and then u got these armed gangs actin the fool. your right its turned into some city out in the middle east on THE EDGE OF CHAOS. and bush running aorund playing politics isnt going to do anything to fix it. he needs to start JUST DISHING ORDERS, WHICH IS MOVE YOUR BLOODY *******S AND GET THOSE PEOPLE OUT OF THERE!

Which is exactly what he is doing. As I said earlier, they are doing all that they can possibly do at the moment. The problem isnt solved but simply 'sending in more troops'. You have got to realize that what they have down there right now is a logisical nightmare. Transportation is impaired albeit nonexistant due to 20ft floodwaters, electricity is out, fresh water is impossible to come by, people are rioting and they need to be evacuated. The problems solution isnt as simple as it may seem to you.

[MatthewPapa]

1 - This should not have happened.

What? Stop a hurricane? Impossible!

2 - The US Military can deploy almost anywhere in the world within 48 hours. Why can't they deploy in massive numbers in their own country?

And you dont consider the 10k troops that they are deploying right now a sufficient amount? As I said earlier, numbers arent necessarily the answer.

3 - Could it be something to do with the huge budget spend on Iraq?

No. How would it? Its isnt like the US government cant scrape up a few extra dollars every now and then when there is a crisis.

[BlackDove]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect

Well, I put my trust in what I have learned about history, government, and behavioral science when I conclude that cultural "differences" are really superficial variations on the same patterns. I certainly believe that there are societies in the world that are better organized than that of the US, (Sweden being one of those), but my point is that no level of organization will succeed in bottling the human animal once circumstances reach a sufficent level of catastrophe.

And I will agree to a point, but a society based on Greed will get there sufficiently faster IMO. In any case, a notable difference in at least, expectation of what will happen, can be seen.

Again, maybe just me.

Originally posted by Bobboau
for those of you saying this chaos is because there americans (nice sentement by the way) keep in mind that what you have here is the destilled, purest, most refined stupid that this city had to offer.

Yeah, you don't count in my thesis, already explained that.

[Bobboau]

Originally posted by MatthewPapa
What? Stop a hurricane? Impossible!

BAH! we could have nuked it, that would have solved everything!

[vyper]

1 - Proper evacuation
2 - 10,000 troops obviously isn't enough and consider FEMA spend their lives planning for these things you'd think there would be contingencies in place that would involve massive amounts of man-power and relief.
3 - Remember that when I say budget spend I include the use of resources like men and machinery. Besides which the US government is in  a lot more debt that it likes to talk about.

[Mongoose]

Originally posted by MatthewPapa


Which is exactly what he is doing. As I said earlier, they are doing all that they can possibly do at the moment. The problem isnt solved but simply 'sending in more troops'. You have got to realize that what they have down there right now is a logisical nightmare. Transportation is impaired albeit nonexistant due to 20ft floodwaters, electricity is out, fresh water is impossible to come by, people are rioting and they need to be evacuated. The problems solution isnt as simple as it may seem to you.

Finally, someone with an intelligent comment here.  Are the rest of you even listening to yourselves?  New Orleans is a practical Hiroshima right now, with feet of water covering just about everything. Like MP said, you can send the entire US Army down there, but with almost no way of getting around, and no place to house anyone in the first place, there isn't much else that can be done. This is a disaster just about beyond anything this country has ever seen; it's going to take a long time to even solve a few of the problems down there.  The most crucial steps are getting people out of the city and plugging up the holes in the levees.  After the floodwaters start to drop a little bit, and supplies are able to get to the city with somewhat more ease, that's when the massive recovery effort can really begin, and that's when all of those National Guardsmen will come in handy.  For anyone to suggest that the people down there aren't doing everything in their power to help the city is not only callous, it's downright stupid.  And for anyone using what's going on to push your own political agenda against the Iraq war, please, get a life.  This is the last thing that needs to be thought of at this time.

I'm also inclined to agree with Ford Prefect's assessment of the looters down there.  While it is true that most of the people who stayed in the city were the poor and homeless, and while I absolutely abhor the violence that people have been exhibiting against those trying to help them, I can almost understand it.  Picture, if you will, everything that you know, your whole life, suddenly vanishing before your eyes.  Picture being forced to live in a hot, humid, cramped, smelly, and downright unsanitary building for several days.  Add that whole mix to the best of people, and the results are going to be ugly.  Thinking along these lines doesn't excuse what's gone on down there, but it does help to understand why it's happening.

Edit: Take a look at things like this and then tell me that there aren't people down there doing what needs to be done.  These guys managed to set up a shelter for tens of thousands of people in just a few hours.  If the other people down there are half as dedicated as these volunteers, they'll manage to get people through this mess.

[StratComm]

While I'm not sure it has come to that yet, the next logical step is the declaration of martial law for N.O. and/or the Gulf Coast.  Without that declaration, regular army troops CANNOT BY LAW act as law enforcement agents, which includes confrontations with armed gangs.  Plus, we are talking about only three days after the event has occured.  Military ships are in transit, the Guard is ammassing and getting organized in Baton Rouge, the Army Corps of Engineers is on location and has been for a couple of days now trying to repair damage to the flood control systems, and available regular troops are en route.  I don't really see what else can be done within reason.  And, N.O. is only one devestated area out of many.  Disgraceful, yes.  Unexpected?  I sure hoped that people would not be so selfish, as previous experience in hurricane-devestated areas points toward fostering community bonds rather than ripping them appart.  But unavoidable.  Plus, the logistics of raising the Guard, which is the organization that is supposed to handle this type of crisis, is not a simple order to go somewhere; these are part-time soldiers who on a normal basis work a job like everyone else so the fact that there are supposed to be 30k there this weekend, given the condition of transportation to the area, is an accomplishment that not many nations on earth would be able to equal.  Enough of the anti-American crap though, as this really isn't the place or time.

[Stealth]

yes I just got back from the Astrodome.  It's like something right out of a movie.  Right out of "War of the Worlds" or something similar...  it made me want to just cry out of helplessness for these people.

Second, let me respond to the idiot who posted this:

Right. OK. Cause Apaches and F-16s are really great against some pissed off homeless guy with a shotgun. And sending in an aircraft carrier is a completely reasonable and appropriate measure.

Before you start making comments like that, know what you're talking about.  The people shooting at civilian aircraft are not "homeless" guys with shotguns.  They're gangs ruling the streets.  This may come as a shock to you, but New Orleans is one of the worst (violent) places in the USA.  With everyone leaving, 99% of the looting and shooting are gangs.  

Now that's all good and fine, they can get arrested when more troops get here... BUT if what they're doing is impeding SUPPLIES getting to the 25,000 INNOCENT HUMAN CIVILIANS in the superdome, that are DYING... then i say show no mercy to them.  Let's see the street gangs try to shoot down three apaches.  i want to see them ****ing try.

If they've declared Martial Law, then they need to ACT like it's martial law, and that means not making any exceptions.  If someone shoots are an official, or a convoy that's on its way to bring relief to the survivors, then shoot them down, and show no mercy.

It's a shame; that people are too afraid (and are refusing) to fly supplies to people that NEED THEM, and are DYING, because some street gangs are shooting civilian craft.   I swear, if i was Bush right now, I'd tell them to send everything they have into New Orleans.  send the marines (drop them off wherever there's land)... let them secure the city.  send in F16s, apaches, etc. and order them to shoot down ANYTHING that fires at them.  make an example of the lowest scum of the earth that are making it harder to get supplies to people that need it.

This whole thing is a damn joke.  Times like this I wonder if i'm dreaming or something.  I'm watching this country fall to pieces over a RELATIVELY SMALL EVENT IN THE BIG SCHEME OF THINGS.  The conditions people are facing in the superdome and other parts of New Orleans are unbelievable.  they say the streets smell of urine.  there are bodies floating along the streets right outside the superdome.  that people are seperated from their families, and without food, water, restrooms, plumbing, A/C, etc for DAYS, and who knows how much longer they'll be there for.

One of the hospitals downtown... apparently since they have no power, the generators can only provide enough to power vital life support systems of patients.  there's no A/C... it's extremely hot and humid, and the windows of the hospital WERE DESIGNED TO NOT BE OPENED... they're TRAPPED in the hospital, with the first two or three floors underwater.  The last message one of the doctors sent today said something to the effect of "Please help. no food, no water. very very sick".... a text message, the last 'communication' to come from A ****ING HOSPITAL

Someone brought out that most of the people left are African-American.  Well I don't want to offend anyone by saying this, but in New Orleans most of the poor, poverty-level population, are African-American, as they are in most other cities across the nation.  All the rich and "well-off" that could, got out of the city.  They drove, they own cars.  The poor that don't have a car, had no choice BUT to stay and wait it out.  that's why they're at one of the former "shelters" ===> the superdome... and they'd be STUPID to try to "walk" out of the city, when there's a hurricane not 12 hours behind them.  Houston is 350 miles from new orleans, and that's WEEKS of walking.  granted there were other cities, but none within walking distance that were predicted to be safe from the hurricane.

[Rictor]

I simply refuse to believe, flat out literally refuse, that extensive looting and organized criminal activity could be going on under such circumstances, in the middle of the United States, with the government standing idly by. Not out of any ethical reasons mind you, but because if they can muster a squad of CIA agents every time the guy at the falafel place looks shifty, they sure as hell can deal with what appear to be shotgun totting yahoos, especially with several hundred thousand armed men at the ready.

Prove it to me, and I still won't believe it. We're not talking about Nigeria here. Generally, when people fire on aid workers or anyone else for that matter, they don't tend to live very long. The notion that the "criminal elements" have somehow taken over the city and are hijacking all the aid just isn't believeable.

But that's just me.

edit: In my own way, I take it as a silver lining. It means that if "they" can't handle a simple thing like a hurricane, a sitaution which they've had decades to prepare for, then they're likely not competent enough to do all the scary shi that people simply assume is within their power, like making people disappear and stealing your socks from the dryer.

[Bobboau]

just out of curiosity, how much media coverage is this cluster **** getting around the world?

[NGTM-1R]

Rictor: it's called posse commitatus. Look it up. Instructive.

Tarawa's arrving in the area tomorrow, and the LHD already there never ceased flight or boat ops despite the fact the civilians refuse to enter the area anymore.

I suppose we're not being entirely fair to the civilian flight crews; their helos aren't made to take damage, they can be disabled by a few lucky pistol shots, and losing one of them screws over not just the crew but anybody the helo could have evacuated or brought in supplies for. If they lose a helo that's several hundred people whose evacuation is delayed, or several dozen who might starve.

I imagine they'll be using Tarawa's SeaCobras for spotting and scare-tactic escort, since they can't help with evacuation directly like the Seaknights. They may not be armed, yet (although the word is that martial law decree is coming), but they look damn scary. We'll see how long people keep shooting at flights into the area then.

[Bobboau]

Originally posted by Rictor
In my own way, I take it as a silver lining. It means that if "they" can't handle a simple thing like a hurricane, a sitaution which they've had decades to prepare for, then they're likely not competent enough to do all the scary shi that people simply assume is within their power, like making people disappear and stealing your socks from the dryer.

I've been trying to convince you of this for a while, our government isn't evil, it's just awe inspireingly incompetent.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by Bobboau
just out of curiosity, how much media coverage is this cluster **** getting around the world?

This much.

[Bobboau]

I'm serius, the fact that we can't even deal with this is just down right embarising.

I guess I could aways just say 'it's the south, that's not realy my country', but in my heart I know that's a copout.

[Depth_Charge]

no offence, but its their fault for the remaining ppl who stay behind, cause some say that their house survive some cat. 2 or 3 hurricaine, and this came in, flatten most the gulf......and another thing is why the hell is the ppl down there are shooting at national guards and others trying to get the ppl out, its just not right........

[Deepblue]

Originally posted by deep_eyes
on the news ive seen SOOO MANY african americans down there its rediculous. lets this be a buncho (not to sound racist or anything) WHITE UPPERCLASS SNOBS (not that some of u arent cool) with control of the country, YOU BEST BELIEVE **** WOULDA BEEN DONE BY NOW!

Dude this has nothing to do with race or class. Rich and poor who decided to wait out the storm are suffering the consequences. And the majority race is do mostly to the make up of the population. The problem lies in the cities almost complete lack of preperation for the worst. They should have had National Guardsmen placed throughout the area before havok broke loose. Ultimately this is the Governer's responsibility.