[Flex]

Hi gang,

It is useless to say I'm in love with FS1/2 from the beginning right?
Now I decided to play them again and check a couple of campaigns. Problem 1 - finding freespace:
First I got HotU version - 219mb. Low graphics, no sound, no voices, etc, I found I can't live that way - even my 3 years old computer can handle almost everything FS can throw on it so why there is a low-res ver at the first time? Hell ok, decided to "update" and after a day trying to get to the ftp above I gave up and downloaded the three bins over torrent (2.19gb). Then moved over fs_open since it is just great. Downloaded (13mb) the newest build, 124mb reworked graphics & effects, found out fast that it can't play the mov files so yet more 134mb in the movies.
Total of 2732mb!!

Is this bandwidth waste needed?

I have done some calculations and made an new install based on the nullsoft system (superb compression) including:
FS2 core, music, voices, everything without the mov files, high-res
fs_open 20050613, all enchansements to the effects, textures, backgrounds, etc
fs2 movies in avi format

In other words - everything is in and maxed out. The compile process takes more than an hour so can't tell the exact size of the result but according to some tests it'll be around a CD size. This is 4 times less than what I have downloaded and nothing is missing!

So my first question - why don't host such a compact install so the new users just double-click and after 2 "Next"s to have the game ready to play instead of reading faqs and forums, digging vb files and wasting bandwidth?

===================================
My second question is more an idea and comes as a sequel to the first one - splitting the fs2 core from the campaigns. I can't tell (someone should help me with the different files, I don't want to reinvent the wheel) how much will be the core itself without the main campaign but it'll be pretty small, especially without the videos and various animations. So the idea is to distribute the core alone and add a program to manage the campaigns. About the program in question:
- Fetching the campaign list from some server (http://fs2.kissifrot.com/ for example)
- Showing the campaign description, progress, version, credits, rating, linking to the discussions about it, etc
- Downloading and installing new campaigns
- Checking for new versions of campaigns and apply patches to them (so not having to download 200mb again)
- Ability to rate campaign over a couple of aspects (gameplay, stability, models, music... ideas?)

I can do it, but first I want oppinions of the people and need someone to back me up at the server side.

Comments?

PS: Almost forgot - same thing for maps so you can download a small core and just get whatever MP maps you want fast & easy

[WMCoolmon]

You should only need about 1.2 GB for *just* Freespace 2, without any fs2_open files or move.

Just having a 'core' isn't really feasible though, since a lot of the campaigns build on the main FS2 campaign. You'd end up downloading the same stuff over and over again.

You could take out a lot of the voice files, and the mission files, but I think that's about it. That'd save you maybe 100-200 MB.

[karajorma]

I've been thinking about splitting the engine from the game for a while. It's perfectly possible to do right now. In fact TBP already ships as a stand alone with no FS2 content.

Personally I'd like to see TBP, FS2, BSG and all the other total conversions that are being worked on run out of the same folder without the need to waste time copying builds of FRED and FS2 to each folder. Unbuddling may be needed for that but so far I can't see any reason why.

As for a program to manage the campaigns. Why reinvent the wheel. We already have some of the functionality in the launcher. Why not put it all there as I suggested on this thread.
 The reason why that's not been implemented is cause RT is busy and I'm still learning C++. If you could build a campaign manager you could probably implement the idea on that thread and kill two birds with one stone.

As for the bandwidth wastage, MatthewPapa did put up a single CD download which is Multiplayer ready over on Game Warden. We're keeping it hush hush cause the problem is that if the fact gets out that something like that is available people turn up and suck GW's bandwidth dry. If you can convince HotU to put up a single CD version of the game though I suspect everyone would thank you.

Originally posted by WMCoolmon
Just having a 'core' isn't really feasible though, since a lot of the campaigns build on the main FS2 campaign. You'd end up downloading the same stuff over and over again.

Actually if you make the FS2 files act like a seperate mod and configure the mod.ini files correctly there is no reason you can't do that.

Look at the way I've configured the Shrouding the Light mod.ini file. All you'd need to do is place the FS2 retail VP files into Freespace2\FS2 and add ,FS2 to the end of the secondary mods list.

Do that with the mod.ini for every campaign and you're done.

The question is whether it's worth it. There are some good reasons to do it and quite a few reasons why we shouldn't. We should just get the community to talk about it and settle the matter once and for all.

Aldo said something interesting a while back. Something along the lines that we should stop being a freespace community and become a freespace engine community.
 I tend to agree.

[Flex]

WMCoolmon,

Without ripping a bit of FS2 and the whole campaign + videos the size is 652Mb... this is quite comparable to the 2.8Gb download I wasted. I saw the mp build which is 1 cd too, but it is "only" mp, I guess I can drive it to below 400mb if cut the SP part.

karajorma, thanks will take a look, this launcher is newer than one I have

My primary concern however is why ther is a 2.8gb pack when you get the same for 650mb

[MatthewPapa]

Originally posted by Flex
WMCoolmon,

Without ripping a bit of FS2 and the whole campaign + videos the size is 652Mb... this is quite comparable to the 2.8Gb download I wasted. I saw the mp build which is 1 cd too, but it is "only" mp, I guess I can drive it to below 400mb if cut the SP part.

karajorma, thanks will take a look, this launcher is newer than one I have

My primary concern however is why ther is a 2.8gb pack when you get the same for 650mb

No, the MP build is the fully functional game; all the VP files etc.

[karajorma]

I get your point Flex but the main reason is that the 3CD version is a full FS2 RETAIL version. As such it uses an enormous amount of space on things like the MVE cutscenes (They're half a gig on their own for instance).  If people can't or won't run FS2_Open it's ideal.

The problem with removing the core of FS2 from the campaign itself is that at the moment it's no use whatsoever to do it. There's only one total conversion that has been released and TBP is a stand alone and therefore doesn't need an unbundled engine.

That said it would be very nice to have an FS2_Open install that did everything for you and which didn't require you to have FS2 already. If you can get an install that allows you to play the main campaign with all of FS2_open's features and do it in 650MB you should be able to get MatthewPapa's interest

The problem is that you've got a lot of data you need to include. And I can't see how you're going to compress that into 650MB. Here's a picture of the contents of MP's 1 CD download. How can you add the media.vp files to that and still take up the same amount of space?

[Flex]

Compression

Here's the list

bastion.avi
colossus.avi
endpart1.avi
endprt2a.avi
endprt2b.avi
flags.lch
FS2uninst.dll
fs2_open_T-20050613.exe
intro.avi
launcher.ini
Launcher5.exe
mono1.avi
mono2.avi
mono3.avi
mono4.avi
mv_core.vp
mv_effects.vp
mv_models.vp
mv_music.vp
mv_textures.vp
patchw32.dll
pxo.url
Readme.txt
Root_fs2.vp
sparky_fs2.vp
sparky_hi_fs2.vp
squadwar.url
stu_fs2.vp
tango2_fs2.vp
tango3_fs2.vp
Uninst.isu

total:  1 346 109 262 bytes

As you can see, it is pretty huge extracted but pretty small compact so it is perfect for distribution.
I have not cleaned unused files like these urls and adding the HLP and some others and have not created shortcuts but it's a 5 min work on the script.
2 questions: should I built it completely (and if yes, some comments on the shortcuts I have to make, additional options like desktop shortcut, etc)? And second - I can't host, when ready I can give the script and/or the whole package but can't host it.

[karajorma]

That's some pretty impressive compression then

[Flex]

yep, nsis rulz
I'm sure I can put the retail ver updated to 1.20 with everything included in around 1 CD too, but need an answer if someone is going to help me host this and generally if someone likes the idea or not, otherwise it is pointless.

[karajorma]

Seeing as how it might mean less bandwidth used I can see MP being interested

Especially if you make sure that Multiplayer works properly

[MatthewPapa]

Link me to this compression software and I will check it out. 625 mb seems almost unrealistic though..... but i could be wrong

[ZmaN]

you could get it off my ftp server...... when my computer gets back up.

my video card blew and I'm not able to turn it on, so when it get sback up Ill let you know and you can come get it off me.

[Fury]

Originally posted by karajorma
In fact TBP already ships as a stand alone with no FS2 content.

Wrong. There are still some FS2 files remaining, most notably interface art.

[Flex]

652 not 625

Where I can send you the script? PM me with some email or somewhere I can upload it? I can post it here too but it is somewhat big and will make the topic harder to read. It's not worth start learning the language, just to check and see for yourself

The "compiller" is at http://nsis.sourceforge.net/download/, free, open source

The also free and open source "IDE" for it is http://hmne.sourceforge.net/

When you get the script just double-click on the nsi file and press ctrl-f9 for compille and relax an hour

This is full-featured install system with uninstall, not self-extracting thing so it can do whatever you want to do

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Mr. Fury
Wrong. There are still some FS2 files remaining, most notably interface art.

I was refering to the fact that you don't need FS2 VP files to run it.

[MatthewPapa]

email the script to [email protected]

(take the -nospam- tags out obviously)

[Flex]

Sent, happy compiling

[MatthewPapa]

Got it, this looks promising. I will keep you guys informed.

[karajorma]

If we include the standard EXE files and make installing the SCP stuff optional we might be able to pursuade HotU to take this in the place of their current rip.

It would certainly increase the popularity of the game as we don't have to worry about bandwidth with HotU very much.

[Flex]

There is a problem with this approach - standart retail is pretty huge. nsis will surely able to bring it around 800-900mb in size along with movies but that's huge too. Without them... you can make the retail with high-res textures and the multimedia in for let's say 300mb which is close to the HotU version but miles ahead in quality and completeness.

Whoever needs the retail ver now? Speaking that scp and the additional vb files are much more beautiful, the movies are with higher quality...?