[Unknown Target]

So are you saying that puppies are the same as worms? Worms, I doubt, are even self aware.
What makes humans so much different from animals, Bob? That we're sentient? So does the fact that we're sentient make it ok to torture an animal, because, what, since it's not sentient, it can't feel pain? Or it can go "Oh, well, I was bred for this, so it's ok"?

What you're basically saying is, it's ok to hurt animals, so long as they don't belong to a person?
What made humanity so damn special that it can torture other creatures? Is that the mark of our superiority that you're so proud of? That we're somehow allowed to torture other animals with impunity, because we're so much "better"?

Hell, while we're at it - in case you say that "Well, it's just nature. They get eaten alive out there all the time, so it's just natural." Aren't we humans? Shouldn't we be able to seperate between our animal instincts to cause pain, and not torturing other beings?

Just because they don't have a brain like you do, Bob, doesn't mean they don't need to be treated like dirt. Of course, if that's what you think - then what about retarded people?

[Ford Prefect]

I'm going to chime in here just to say that you really didn't address Bob's argument.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.


1. I am NOT advocating hating of the French.

Jesus ****ing christ, will you all just shut the hell up? Why the **** is the "comments section" on Bush getting more attention than the actual ****ing article? I post a bunch a goddamn people using LIVE KITTENS AND PUPPIES AS SHARK BAIT and it's automatically "America is t3h 3v1L.

[color=66ff00]Nobody said you were advocating it. Why have you become so hostile? Also nobody has said that america is evil, I said the hatred of the French nation is racism perpetuated by the american media and attempted to describe that the hatred is not only unfounded but misguided.


StrattComm: I think my reasoning is ok, I don't think this can go anywhere though as my points are being discounted without much thought as to their merit.
[/color]

[StratComm]

I'll respond to Bob's argument strictly out of a devil's advocate position, though I agree that there are FAR bigger problems in the world than animal rights will ever be.  Dogs and cats have a greater degree of self-awareness than your common fishing bait.  I don't see any signs of what we would consider full-blown consciousness per-se, but you can't say that a dog is no more aware of its surroundings than an earthworm.  They do have the ability to work as a team  and can show emotional responses as well as form (extremely primitive) social heirarchies.  So there is a degree of cruelty to rigging them up with hooks and tossing them overboard to get eaten alive by sharks, if just because there are qualities in them that we recognize as "human" in ourselves, albeit to a lesser degree.  If they are already dead, I can't really see anything wrong with it; the issue is really the way in which they are essentially left to die.

EDIT: Maeg, it's not that the points are without merit or being treated as such (at least by me), it's that on considering the article in context there is absolutely no evidence to back up the step in logic from his statement of hatred for the French to what you claim to be anti-french sentiments perpetuated by the American media*.  And I really can't disagree with your statements (to a degree**), I just find your choice to interject them into this thread to be inappropriate to the discussion.

* The "french-hating" you're pointing to, and the media-perpetuation that you're sort of relying on, really ever did only apply to two things: Fox News and related organizations, and the Capital building cafe.  Most of the views I saw at the time were really this being an example of petty politics at its worst, hardly to perpetuate an anti-french message.

**I do actually watch mainstream media from time to time to stay abrest of what's coming out of this country, so seeing you jump from animal crualty to Bush/Iraq/etc without any sort of explanation just feels completely unwarrented (unless all you watch from here is Fox news and consider that to be representative of all American media, which I know you don't).

[Bobboau]

[edit]I started writeing this before Ford posted[/edit]
the fact that you are a human and I am one, the fact that we have this huge geneticly built in need to form a society with our own kind, and not to love every potential meal in the world.

what made humanity so specal that it's the only specese that can't exploit other animals?
do you ever scold loins for tearing the throught out of a zebra, or a bear for impailing a seal on it's claw, or an eagle for pulling a fish from a lake, or what about a shark tearing a hole in the side of a human? I sure as hell have no problem with these preditors useing there skills to get food, much like I have no problem with our own speciese useing it's skills (cultivation, and domestication not unique in the animal kingdom, but there some of the things were especaly good at)

there are other animals that are knowen to use bait, what do you sudgest we do about them?

they are not human, and I don't give a damn about there brain, the reason why it is important is because I am human, and I realy don't have much sympathy for a competeing speciese.

[Martinus]

[color=66ff00]Doesn't the potential animal cruelty need putting in context though? All of you are arguing that it's immoral but I'm not sure if the animals are being used for some kind of cruel sport or if they're being used as bait so that families can feed their kids.

What's the island like? Is it small/large? Are the people reliant on the shark as a food source? Are cats and dogs breeding uncontrollably? (both can carry rather dangerous diseases)

There's not enough facts to tell at the moment to claim this as cruelty or just people surviving.
[/color]

[Bobboau]

just because some people in our culture have developed this odd obsesion with anthopormorphiseing (generaly cute) things doesn't mean it's corect, or universal to all cultures, you didn't address the thing about people who eat dog, cat and, (yes even our dear predicesors) monkey. I don't have a problem with this, do you? are these cutures evil from your perspective because they allow and endorse these activities?

[Jetmech Jr.]

Originally posted by Bobboau
[edit]I started writeing this before Ford posted[/edit]
the fact that you are a human and I am one, the fact that we have this huge geneticly built in need to form a society with our own kind, and not to love every potential meal in the world.

what made humanity so specal that it's the only specese that can't exploit other animals?
do you ever scold loins for tearing the throught out of a zebra, or a bear for impailing a seal on it's claw, or an eagle for pulling a fish from a lake, or what about a shark tearing a hole in the side of a human? I sure as hell have no problem with these preditors useing there skills to get food, much like I have no problem with our own speciese useing it's skills (cultivation, and domestication not unique in the animal kingdom, but there some of the things were especaly good at)

there are other animals that are knowen to use bait, what do you sudgest we do about them?

they are not human, and I don't give a damn about there brain, the reason why it is important is because I am human, and I realy don't have much sympathy for a competeing speciese.

These people aren't eating these animals. They're hooking them (WHILE THEY'RE STILL ALIVE) and throwing them out to either A) Drown, or B) be eaten alive.

Animals like Lions need to kill other animals to survive. They sure as hell don't take baby animals and stick sharp pointy objects in them to catch other animals (again, WHILE THEY'RE STILL ALIVE).

If these people were eating puppies? I'd find it disgusting, since dogs are orders of magnitude more self aware and intelligent than worms or bait fish, but I could understand. To an extent. Again, it was said that these people do this out of TRADITION more than any real need.

So thats what, 90% of your claims shot to ****? Seems all thats left is your "well, they ain't human, so who cares?" argument. Well, dogs are significantly better than humans in some respects, as are cats, you degenerate.

The only special thing about humanity is that they've gone from being low-tech wasteful degenerate creatures to high-tech wasteful degenerate creatures. Get off your high horse.

I don't have a problems with animals humanely killed for FOOD purposes. But I hate killing for no reason, and I hate needless torture, and most of all, I hate people who a) Do these things, and b) condone them, passing them off as "just mindless animals."

BTW, are you really Bobbaou? Your spelling is notably worse than usual...

[StratComm]

Knowing me, I edit a post and it gets 4 replies below it before I finish.  I don't really know why I bother though, because whenever I say something, someone else just repeats it anyway.

Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
BTW, are you really Bobbaou? Your spelling is notably worse than usual...

So I'm not the only one with an unexplainable suspicion that people are posting in very out-of-character ways.  

[Bobboau]

I hate people who place there own kind as lower than an animal, people who think that they are some how smarter than every other human who has exsisted because they have decided to  extend what a person is to include non-humans. you are right on my list of people I hate, just below evagelicals.

do wolves care about any other animal besides themselves?
do dolphins care about any other animal besides themselves?
do lions care about any other animal besides themselves?
do ants care about any other animal besides themselves?
do any other socal animal I've forgoten care about any other animal besides themselves baring one or two isolated incedents were humans forced them to accept some foren animal?

these people are exploiting animals to get food. that's it. I doubt the animal realy cares that it's being used as bait rather than being eaten directly, and nither do I, the fact that they are cute is the only reason you are upset. I don't kare if it's painful, I don't care if it's unnessisaraly unpleasent, I don't care if it's torture. (though torchureing animals is usualy a sign of mental problems and it should be discuraged as to keep the mass murderer rate down, but on the face of it i don't care)

I have never used 'self aware', or if this was the only means of getting food or 'tradition' as part of any of my arguments, I have simply stated that we are animals like all other animals, and we are eating like all other animals and we don't give a fcuk about the animals we are exploiting, just like every other animal that exsists doesn't give a fcuk about the animals that it exploits. becaus if they did they would go extinct.

you keep asking me why I think humans are better than all other animals, I have repetadly said I don't, it is you who are placeing humans on a pedistal by saying we should extend our culture to animals who are not biologicly capable of being a part of it, _justify that_

and you aparently haven't had much contact with me, my 'specal' spelling is one of my trademarks.

[Jetmech Jr.]

Originally posted by aldo_14


So does colliding with a tree.  It doesn't make the tree a challenging hunt, does it?

No, but neither does it make a tree easy to kill/destroy/chop down.

And moose can be aggressive. Attacking cars, people, and the like.

[Jetmech Jr.]

Originally posted by Bobboau
I hate people who place there own kind as lower than an animal, people who think that they are some how smarter than every other human who has exsisted because they have decided to  extend what a person is to include non-humans. you are right on my list of people I hate, just below evagelicals.

do wolves care about any other animal besides themselves?
do dolphins care about any other animal besides themselves?
do lions care about any other animal besides themselves?
do ants care about any other animal besides themselves?
do any other socal animal I've forgoten care about any other animal besides themselves baring one or two isolated incedents were humans forced them to accept some foren animal?

these people are exploiting animals to get food. that's it. I doubt the animal realy cares that it's being used as bait rather than being eaten directly, and nither do I, the fact that they are cute is the only reason you are upset. I don't kare if it's painful, I don't care if it's unnessisaraly unpleasent, I don't care if it's torture. (though torchureing animals is usualy a sign of mental problems and it should be discuraged as to keep the mass murderer rate down, but on the face of it i don't care)

I have never used 'self aware', or if this was the only means of getting food or 'tradition' as part of any of my arguments, I have simply stated that we are animals like all other animals, and we are eating like all other animals and we don't give a fcuk about the animals we are exploiting, just like every other animal that exsists doesn't give a fcuk about the animals that it exploits. becaus if they did they would go extinct.

you keep asking me why I think humans are better than all other animals, I have repetadly said I don't, it is you who are placeing humans on a pedistal by saying we should extend our culture to animals who are not biologicly capable of being a part of it, _justify that_

and you aparently haven't had much contact with me, my 'specal' spelling is one of my trademarks.

Bull****. Show me where I said that Humans are universally worse than animals. The best you'll find is me saying "cats and dogs are better than humans in some respects." Or the fact that I called humans wasteful and degenerate (care to deny it? I've seen most of the people on these boards post something to that effect at least once, in relation to some news article or such).

MY POSITION is that Humans aren't divine beings, with every right to torture and harrass and needlessly kill anything not human.

Do other animals care about other animals? Hmm, most probably don't. But then again, like I said, neither do they use each other for live bait out of tradition, or torture and maim other animals, and most don't kill needlessly. Strike 1, 2, and 3, my friend.

Could I live with these people killing animals for food purposes with as little pain and suffering as possible? Yes. A persons gotta eat.

Could I live with people baiting them while alive and killing them slowly, ESPECIALLY infants? **** NO.

You don't know **** about me or my beliefs. I only care if because they're cute? Sorry, but thats just coincidence. If you had a something butt ugly being treated in the same manner, I'd still be outraged, ESPECIALLY when it's an intelligent creature.

And I know about your spelling. The point is, it seems significantly worse than usual, sparking the thought "Is someone screwing with his account?":p

[Bobboau]

Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.


Bull****. Show me where I said that Humans are universally worse than animals. The best you'll find is me saying "cats and dogs are better than humans in some respects." Or the fact that I called humans wasteful and degenerate

that's prety much what I was refering to.

MY POSITION is that Humans aren't divine beings, with every right to torture and harrass and needlessly kill anything not human.

but every other animal is given this right? have you fcuking seen a lion eat _anything_ it's prety fcuking brutal, and the only reason most preditors don't slauther in masses is because it's too much work, when you have catle in a coral for instance and a pack of wolves finds it, they will kill every fcuking one of them

Do other animals care about other animals? Hmm, most probably don't. But then again, like I said, neither do they use each other for live bait out of tradition, or torture and maim other animals, and most don't kill needlessly.

ok, I know this is prety poor, but I'm SURE, I've heard of other animals useing other animals as bait, are you so willing to put your entier line of argument on the line that I won't be able to find a single instance in the animal kingdom of an animal useing another animal as bait, I am almost positive that there is a spider or something.
As for tradition, killer whales teach there young to beach them selves to catch seals, killing them in the most horrable way posable before devouring them, usualy they try to go for the cute little baby seals too, I supose this would depend on your definition of tradition though. and is the whole bait thing realy such a inherently horable thing? why do you keep focusing on this? they are killing an animal in order to eat. I don't know maybe your winning some emotional points on the other people reading this, but you seemed obsesed over this.

Could I live with these people killing animals for food purposes with as little pain and suffering as possible? Yes. A persons gotta eat.

Could I live with people baiting them while alive and killing them slowly, ESPECIALLY infants? **** NO.

why does it matter? as you said, 'gotta eat' why are you pissed that they're getting far more food out of the deal

You don't know **** about me or my beliefs. I only care if because they're cute? Sorry, but thats just coincidence. If you had a something butt ugly being treated in the same manner, I'd still be outraged, ESPECIALLY when it's an intelligent creature.

should I get out the picture of the monkeys with the tops of there heads capped off?

and the only reason Humans seem 'waistfull' is because were spreading out across the world and all the animals are either in a symbiosis with us (dogs, cows, rats, roaches) or are getting out competed by us, if you take just about any animal and look at it with a wrathfull eye it'll look waistfull, look at horses, or eliphants, look at how much plants they eat, and look at there crap, they barely absorb any nutrients from the vast amount of plant matter they consume, this is how all sorts of scavangers are able to survive off of nothing but eliphant siht there entier lives.

[Bobboau]

and if your going to try and tell me that no other animal kills for fun or is unnessisaraly brutal...

you don't own a cat.

[Ghost]

Breasts


I think I'm a few pages late.

I don't much like the French, but I think using dogs and cats for BAIT is reason to think pretty much anybody is ****ed up.

[BlackDove]

Nipples

[Jetmech Jr.]

Originally posted by Bobboau


and the only reason Humans seem 'waistfull' is because were spreading out across the world and all the animals are either in a symbiosis with us (dogs, cows, rats, roaches) or are getting out competed by us, if you take just about any animal and look at it with a wrathfull eye it'll look waistfull, look at horses, or eliphants, look at how much plants they eat, and look at there crap, they barely absorb any nutrients from the vast amount of plant matter they consume, this is how all sorts of scavangers are able to survive off of nothing but eliphant siht there entier lives.

Why do you reply like that? It makes it difficult to respond.

Where does it say that Humans are universally worse than animals then?

Lions typically go for the jugular, which is essentially a quick kill. Don't matter what you do to it dead, it's not aware when it's already been killed. This goes in line with my "don't torture" stance.

Since when? Typically, IIRC you'd find 1 or 2 dead, not all. Show me please.

I SAID MOST. The Animal Kingdom is too diverse for there not to be a FEW types of animals that behave this way, but typically, MOST don't.

And please, find me a creature that behaves that way, torturing and baiting animals over extended periods of time. I'm already covered, but I can't think of 1 single animal that does this. For future reference, I'd like to know.

Bait isn't the main problem. It's LIVE bait, especially intelligent, self-aware bait. And the needless pain.

They aren't getting "far more food out of the deal," and even if they are, thats not what pisses me off. Here, Emphasis on my points: Torture. Alive. Pain. Infants. Self-Aware.

It wouldn't matter. I say what I mean, and I mean what a say. Looks don't count for much when it comes to torture. If you had a person horribly burned and crippled, or born deformed, would you not feel as bad about torturing them as you would a healthy person? I would. Worse, maybe.

Adult cats tend to be mean nasty creatures when it comes to some things, but again, didn't say no animal was this way.

Bah, forget it. Just go on not caring.

[Ford Prefect]

Lions typically go for the jugular, which is essentially a quick kill. Don't matter what you do to it dead, it's not aware when it's already been killed. This goes in line with my "don't torture" stance.

I don't know what you've been watching or reading, but lions, as well as most predators, pretty much grab onto whatever they can get a hold of.

[Bobboau]

Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.


Why do you reply like that? It makes it difficult to respond.
so I can respond point by point to your multi-point post
 
Where does it say that Humans are universally worse than animals then?
duknow, you were the one bringing up us degenerate waistfull humans

Lions typically go for the jugular, which is essentially a quick kill.
um... no, they go for the throught, were they cruch the wind pipe suficateing there victum ensureing a very slow and painful death in the jaws of a preditor
Don't matter what you do to it dead, it's not aware when it's already been killed. This goes in line with my "don't torture" stance.

Since when? Typically, IIRC you'd find 1 or 2 dead, not all. Show me please.
the wolves in a coral thing, remember seeing a bunch of dead cows in a national geographic and five minnutes with goolge netted me nothing, it's an unnatural setting, the cows can't get away from them, so they keep killing because they can

I SAID MOST. The Animal Kingdom is too diverse for there not to be a FEW types of animals that behave this way, but typically, MOST don't.

And please, find me a creature that behaves that way, torturing and baiting animals over extended periods of time. I'm already covered, but I can't think of 1 single animal that does this. For future reference, I'd like to know.

Bait isn't the main problem. It's LIVE bait, especially intelligent, self-aware bait. And the needless pain.

alright so you admit that there might be an animal that uses another animal as bait for a thrid animal, this wouldn't suprise you, and I swear it's right on the tip of my mind! (someone help me here) but the overall point is the bait thing is just you trying to score points, like I said, it's one animal useing another animal to catch a third animal, if it looks bad is irrelevent, because all preditory behavior looks bad

They aren't getting "far more food out of the deal,"
1/8th pound dog vs 2 ton shark

and even if they are, thats not what pisses me off. Here, Emphasis on my points: Torture. Alive. Pain. Infants. Self-Aware.
yes, it is emotionaly upsetting, do bring it up once more.

It wouldn't matter. I say what I mean, and I mean what a say. Looks don't count for much when it comes to torture. If you had a person horribly burned and crippled, or born deformed, would you not feel as bad about torturing them as you would a healthy person? I would. Worse, maybe.
and this is in relation to... what? I've made the simplest easiest destinction posable, human, one value to be measured here, and you keep bringing up the 'undesireables' and asking me if I'd have a problem with that. yes, I would, human, there, easy

Adult cats tend to be mean nasty creatures when it comes to some things, but again, didn't say no animal was this way.
it certanly seemed like you were implying that humans were to be singled out for there evil nastyness, if a cat gets near a puppy, much like the ones in this story, and the mother is not around, the cat would kill that cute little puppy, either by snapping it's neck or sufocateing it, I supose it wouldn't use it as bait for a fish 32000 times it's mass, but that's only because it's not smart enouth to try, I'm sure it wouldn't have any problems with doing that

Bah, forget it. Just go on not caring.
and you can just continue liveing in your world were lions mearcats and warthogs sit around in the jungle holding hands and singing coombia

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.


No, but neither does it make a tree easy to kill/destroy/chop down.

With a chainsaw it's piss easy.  Or a knife if you're patient (strip a ring of bark off; kills the artery effect drawing water up the tree).

Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.

And moose can be aggressive. Attacking cars, people, and the like.

Only when hungry, tired or threatened by proximity of cars, people or the like; moose only chase a short distance in defense.  Either way, it's scarcely a fair fight between them and an Armalite; a moose (or deer, or pretty much any of the hunted herbivores) has about the same chance of escaping from a bullet as a puppy has once on a hook.

Albeit it's worth noting that the moose (and this illustrates how stupid it is) response to car noise is to run onto the road.