Author Topic: Clarke: Europe must trade civil liberties for security  (Read 1173 times)

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Offline aldo_14

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Offline Ford Prefect

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Clarke: Europe must trade civil liberties for security
Gooooooood, Europe. You are learning well from us. I can feel your anger... it gives you FOCUS!

Gooooooood, gooooooooooooooood.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline Roanoke

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Clarke: Europe must trade civil liberties for security
continuing the star wars theme: looks like "Darth Blunkett" has an apprentice.

 

Offline Janos

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Clarke: Europe must trade civil liberties for security
I wonder how people stayed alive in ye olde dayes, when freedom of speech and privacy and security from TERRORISM, for ****'s sake, were not mutually exclusive.
lol wtf

 

Offline Bri_Dog

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Clarke: Europe must trade civil liberties for security
Terrorists win!
Sig

 

Offline Rictor

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Clarke: Europe must trade civil liberties for security
Population of Europe: 700,000,000
Number of people killed in terrorist attacks in recent years: 240

If that's a dire threat then I'm a small orange spider-monkey who is also the World Heavyweight Boxing Champion (knockout in 3rd round).

 

Offline Mongoose

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Clarke: Europe must trade civil liberties for security
Methinks that a certain historical figure by the name of Ben Franklin would know what to say about this.  All I can say is that, for all of those stating that the US is curtailing civil liberties, perhaps you'd better look in your own backyards.  The way I see it, I'd much rather be over here, Patriot Act and all, than living under a policy like that.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Clarke: Europe must trade civil liberties for security
Quote
Originally posted by Mongoose
Methinks that a certain historical figure by the name of Ben Franklin would know what to say about this.  All I can say is that, for all of those stating that the US is curtailing civil liberties, perhaps you'd better look in your own backyards.  The way I see it, I'd much rather be over here, Patriot Act and all, than living under a policy like that.


Strangely, most of us see it the opposite way.  So far this stuff has only been (for the most part; particularly on an EU level) proposed, not passed ala Patriot Act - it's the US that's seen as setting a precedent.

Truth be told, we're in the same boat, just different seats.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Clarke: Europe must trade civil liberties for security
I understand the reversed viewpoints, but I think that, at its worst, the Patriot Act wouldn't go half as far as some of the proposals I read in that article.  It's true that the wording of the law seems a bit threatening, but I think there are few politicians that would push for its complete enforcement; they'd lose every bit of support they had.  In fact, the reason I've never been too worked up about the Patriot Act is simply because it's never really been utilized that broadly, even if the possibility does exist.  Besides, I'm almost positive that it'll be repealed or just let to die out within the next 5-10 years, especially if the Democrats get control of Congress or the presidency.  I get the feeling that, over here, even the people who are absolutely ignorant of the Bill of Rights would be caught up in a public uproar if the implications of restricting it were explained.  On the other hand, at least from the tone of that article, I get the distinct impression that your politicians want do do more than pass legislation; they seem to want to enforce every last bit of it.  Maybe I'm just getting the wrong vibe, though.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Clarke: Europe must trade civil liberties for security
I don't know; the Patriot Act allowed the FBI to force ISPs to reveal customer account information; it was struck down as unconstitutional but the US Justice Dept wants (wanted?  Not sure on current legal state) that clause added once more.

Very similar to the EU situation; proposals are already ruled illegal, UK Gov (bastards - I didn't vote for them BTW) wants to ignore that.

A lot of the Patriot Act terrifies me; the name itself sounds Orwellian.  So far, there's not been as strong an equivalent in the UK (the House of Lords has its uses after all*).  Yet.  But it's worth noting over here the Patriot Act is basically used as a benchmark.  Again different sides, same coin.

*I can't fully  compare to the US, but it's worth noting the roughly equivalent UK institutions seems -to me- to be harder to dominate; largely because the body responsible for appointing judges is independent, and because the House of Lords is unelected.  Whether the Labour plans to water down the latter act to stop that, is a worry.

 

Offline pyro-manic

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Clarke: Europe must trade civil liberties for security
:sigh:

Why do the guvvamint want to be like the Americans so badly? Are they really that stupid? I find it hard to believe to be honest....
Any fool can pull a trigger...

 

Offline IceFire

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Clarke: Europe must trade civil liberties for security
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
I don't know; the Patriot Act allowed the FBI to force ISPs to reveal customer account information; it was struck down as unconstitutional but the US Justice Dept wants (wanted?  Not sure on current legal state) that clause added once more.

Very similar to the EU situation; proposals are already ruled illegal, UK Gov (bastards - I didn't vote for them BTW) wants to ignore that.

A lot of the Patriot Act terrifies me; the name itself sounds Orwellian.  So far, there's not been as strong an equivalent in the UK (the House of Lords has its uses after all*).  Yet.  But it's worth noting over here the Patriot Act is basically used as a benchmark.  Again different sides, same coin.

*I can't fully  compare to the US, but it's worth noting the roughly equivalent UK institutions seems -to me- to be harder to dominate; largely because the body responsible for appointing judges is independent, and because the House of Lords is unelected.  Whether the Labour plans to water down the latter act to stop that, is a worry.

I have to say that the parliamentary system is whats keeping things in check right now.

House of Lords for you and the Senate for Canada have done quite a bit.  Canada achieved quite a few impressive feats of freedom and democracy with no Charter of Rights and Freedoms until 1982.  I'm hoping these various checks and balances keep ourselves afloat and not go under the water with opressive new laws that hurt more than save.
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Offline aldo_14

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Clarke: Europe must trade civil liberties for security
Quote
Originally posted by pyro-manic
:sigh:

Why do the guvvamint want to be like the Americans so badly? Are they really that stupid? I find it hard to believe to be honest....


They see Bush consilidating his power through the misdirection of fear, and realise it'd make their lives easier to do the say.  It's hard to tell if they're genuine wannabe dictators, or are simply too lazy to fight proper democratic battles in parliament.... the whole security thing is, of course, a sham.  It's a case of closing a single loophole only to expose thousands more to any terrorists who may be out there.  

We have random searches on the tube, then they can drive a car bomb into the city centre.  We monitor ISPs, they can simply switch to postal mail or phone instead.  And with each attempt to 'counter', we destroy more and more of the freedoms we spent centuries building and protecting.